Announcer: 0:00

The following programming is sponsored by Marc J Bernstein. The views expressed do not necessarily reflect the views of this station, its management or Beasley Media Group. Entrepreneur, author and financial consultant, Marc Bernstein helps high-performing entrepreneurial business owners create a vision for the future and follow through on their goals and intentions. Ang Onorato is a business growth strategist who blends psychology and business together to create conscious leaders and business owners who impact the world. Founders Forum is a radio show podcast sharing the real stories behind entrepreneurship as founders discover more about themselves, while providing valuable lessons and some fun and entertainment for you. Now here's Marc and Ang.

Marc Bernstein: 0:42

Good morning America. How are you? This is Marc Bernstein. This is Founders Forum. We have with us today Ang Onorato, and a special guest today, jack, who I'll introduce in a couple of moments. And, Ang, I just want to lay a surprise on you we didn't talk about our topic of the day. We're always prepared and we always come in here knowing what we're going to do, and today was a little bit chaotic, as happens in showbiz, right? So, um, I'm going to mention a word and you're going to have to talk about it, ang, and then I'll talk about it, and then we'll get jack to talk about it.

Ang Onorato: 1:18

I'm on a game show so I gotta get those, I gotta keep those skills up too, so so no that's awesome.

Marc Bernstein: 1:24

I'm ready and keep in mind we're on a show about entrepreneurs, so as entrepreneurs go, the word is impact your thoughts, my favorite words actually.

Announcer: 1:35

I need like that.

Ang Onorato: 1:36

So I think of impact as something that, particularly with founders, that I think it starts with the founders knowing their story, knowing why they do what they do, knowing what the actual impact is that they want to make on not just their customers but the exponential of that. You know their families or communities, and then transferring that also to what is the actual impact you want the business to make. So and what I do, and I think it's really important to be able to tell and articulate your story, not just to sell what you're selling or what your value is, but really what is the impact, because that's what matters to people. So great word, Marc. I love it.

Marc Bernstein: 2:13

So, as it impacts my business I'm a financial planner, I'm in the financial services business always is financial freedom for as many people as I can possibly have an impact on, whether it's through materials I put out, the clients that we work with, the entrepreneurs who are creating financial freedom for many of their employees, whatever that is. So that's that's sort of how I think about it. The other thing I do think about is I have many meetings throughout the day and I always want to walk away with not sure if I'm always successful, but I always. My goal is always like what kind of positive impact can I have that person sitting across from me, whether it's in person or in Zoom or you know, however, or a phone call, you know what's the impact on them and if it has a good impact on them, it's a great impact for me. So, jack, I'm going to introduce you formally in a second. But how does that word affect you? Because I know you have a business that impacts many people as well.

Jack Korbutov PharmD, RPh, FACA, FACVP: 3:12

Yeah, I think impact is a big why I get asked why I started a business and why I started a compounding pharmacy and I wanted to make an impact on the world. I wanted to offer an alternative therapy medication for our patients, for doctors, to choose from. So for me, it's a big why I got to impact health care. Through that, I got to impact our employees and impact my family, so for me, it's a big why as to why I got into this.

Marc Bernstein: 3:42

So why has to do with purpose? So you're connecting purpose to impact, which I think is really important. And in fact, someone I was talking to yesterday and she's going to be talking to soon her company is called Purpose Geek and because she's a geek about purpose everything, everyone she talks to, what's the purpose behind it? And ultimately you're talking about what kind of impact are you going to have so great little discussion that we could spend the whole show on, but I want to introduce Jack, so let's go with that.

Marc Bernstein: 4:10

So Jack Korbutov, pharmd, rph, faca, facvp, as you might have guessed, is a pharmacist. He's founder president and pharmacist in charge of the art of medicine. I'll just take a little break and tell you that I know Jack because I'm a patient of the art of medicine for many years and their service is impeccable. But we happened to meet at an event for Entrepreneurs Organization, of which we're both members of the Philadelphia chapter, and we might talk about that a little bit at the show. But I was like oh, I'm so glad to meet you because I love your pharmacy and I don't really love pharmacies in general, I have to say, but it's because of the specialized service that they do.

Marc Bernstein: 4:56

So just to tell you a little bit more about Jack. He's a Philadelphia native who graduated from Philadelphia College of Pharmacy in 2011. Just one year later, in 2012, and he'll tell you his story he opened Philadelphia's first modern compounding pharmacy, which is not your average chain store on the corner. Since then, he's expanded into a larger location. That's the only PCAB-accredited and USP-800 certified pharmacy in the city, in the big city of Philadelphia, while gaining licensure in 18 states, which I think is now 20 states. Right, and with that, I introduce you to Jack Korbutov. Good morning.

Jack Korbutov PharmD, RPh, FACA, FACVP: 5:36

Good morning. Thank you so much for having me, Marc and Ang.

Marc Bernstein: 5:39

So, jack, you have a great story about your family and your upbringing, which I think influenced you greatly, so why don't we talk about that? Start with that.

Jack Korbutov PharmD, RPh, FACA, FACVP: 5:48

Yeah, absolutely so. I'm first generation here. My dad came over from Russia, my mom from Ukraine, so really humble beginnings. Specifically my dad.

Marc Bernstein: 5:58

Which side of the war are you on? I'm just kidding, oh you know what I'll tell you offline.

Jack Korbutov PharmD, RPh, FACA, FACVP: 6:02

Yeah, right, but yeah, real humble beginnings to me. My father had an entrepreneurial spirit. He came here without a penny to his name and without a word of English. He had a friend who was here who introduced him to the cab Philadelphia Cab Company and he started riding a cab. So not only did he not have money or a word of English, but he did not know the streets of Philadelphia. But he was given a cab and said good luck, he worked hard.

Jack Korbutov PharmD, RPh, FACA, FACVP: 6:30

Obviously he didn't have GPS at that point there was no GPS either, no iPhones, nothing like that. But he figured it out. He worked hard, he got the language. He eventually was able to buy his own cab, his own medallion back in the day and really be his own boss. After that he continued to work hard, got better at English, sold his cab, started a little newsstand.

Marc Bernstein: 6:51

By the way, just to buy a medallion is a big deal. I know a lot of people that have been in that business. That's a big deal.

Jack Korbutov PharmD, RPh, FACA, FACVP: 7:01

Yeah, there were no Ubers back then, so medallions were very tough to get. So so he sold his new stand, started a coffee shop, uh, eventually then went onto a beer distributor and in his prime he owned multiple um juice bars in LA fitnesses. So I got to really be part of that journey as soon as I could walk. I mean, he was making me carry beers around his beer distributor, which I don't know about the legality of that, but that was back then.

Marc Bernstein: 7:24

Um, by the way, Angela laughed about the juice bars. I think we were both customers of his at various LA Fitnesses, he came up with the peanut butter blast.

Ang Onorato: 7:32

That's exactly why I was like, oh my gosh, I probably ran into him.

Jack Korbutov PharmD, RPh, FACA, FACVP: 7:35

Yes, yeah, so yeah, I really got to see the transformation of just business after business and starting out with zero customers and ending up doing very well. For me it was just normal and I grew up thinking, oh, I have to do this. I was born here, I have the language, I have more than a penny to my name. Even though I didn't have a lot of money, my parents were very willing to support me with Ventures. So I was really lucky and fortunate to get used to that world before exploring it on my own.

Marc Bernstein: 8:07

So you went to college. You went to school first of all, high school. I know you were an athlete. Yeah, talk a little bit about that and how it affected you, and then talk about your education and where that brought you.

Jack Korbutov PharmD, RPh, FACA, FACVP: 8:18

Yeah. So it wouldn't be right for me not to mention that I did wrestle my entire life and wrestling was a very I mean talk about impact. It was a very impactful sport on my life. There was a famous wrestler, dan Gable, who was one of the best wrestlers of all time, who said everything in life is easy after wrestling. I remember hearing that in high school and thinking, okay, if this is the hardest thing I have to go through, then then let's be it it. But, um, it really is true. You know, nothing compares to, uh, being a boy going through puberty and not being able to eat and, right before a match, not being able to drink water when you're really thirsty. So, anything I go through in business, I can always look back and say, hey, at least I'm not 17 and dying of thirst right now just to make weight.

Marc Bernstein: 9:04

I mentioned to you, my brothers were both wrestlers. I would have been a wrestler but for an injury, so a lot of my close friends were wrestlers. I was around it all through high school but I took up music instead because of the injury. But I know exactly what that life is like and I mentioned to you. I saw some guys' lives really changed around because of the discipline, because of the fight, because of the determination and all the things they had to learn in order to become great wrestlers.

Jack Korbutov PharmD, RPh, FACA, FACVP: 9:30

Yeah, yeah, and I think it translates very well.

Ang Onorato: 9:32

One thing, my dad was a wrestling coach and he had three daughters and he was very ahead of his time. He taught us all how to wrestle at home, of course, because we couldn't do it. Now. Schools have girls wrestling programs and two of us do jujitsu. So I think we're all in a tune with what you're saying. I think it's a great foundation for business success.

Jack Korbutov PharmD, RPh, FACA, FACVP: 9:51

So I love this. That's amazing. Yeah, girls, wrestling is a very quickly growing sport, as it should be, and I think it's really valuable. If I have a daughter in the future, she will certainly be wrestling, and that's only if my wife is not listening to this right now.

Jack Korbutov PharmD, RPh, FACA, FACVP: 10:05

And you do have a son, so I presume that's goes without saying Again, depending on if my wife is currently listening, I love you, caitlin. Um, so, yeah, I went on to Philadelphia college of pharmacy. I knew that I wanted to eventually open a business. I went to pharmacy school, figured I would open a pharmacy. It was during my schooling that it became very apparent that the world of regular retail pharmacy your CVSs, rite-aids, walgreens it was becoming increasingly impossible to compete with them. So I knew I needed another avenue.

Jack Korbutov PharmD, RPh, FACA, FACVP: 10:38

It was in my fourth year out of six that I had met another compounding pharmacist in Westchester Pennsylvania, mark Pimley, who had mentioned this concept called compounding. Now, this is how pharmacists did things before Big Pharma was around hundreds of years ago. I did not know it was a modern-day practice, but with modern-day technology, with modern-day needs of individualization, personalization of medication, it was actually becoming an increasingly needed type of therapy or type of medication. So I was fortunate enough he let me tour his pharmacy. The next two years. Pharmacy school was six years total. The next two years I went to every single symposium, convention, conference that had to do with compounding. Every single winter break, summer break, spring break, I would go and try to learn. So I really spent a lot of time outside of school learning, because our school didn't necessarily teach us a ton about compounding, or I should say modern-day compounding.

Marc Bernstein: 11:36

So I took it upon myself. Also, I'm guessing it didn't teach you about business and I imagine you learned a bit by touring around about the business, yeah yeah.

Jack Korbutov PharmD, RPh, FACA, FACVP: 11:40

So it was important for me to really understand the business aspect too. So a lot of these conferences and symposiums did have a business aspect to it. So, uh, as a pharmacist, it was really important for me to learn the clinical but learn the business as well, because I didn't want to get into something that didn't make sense. And then I graduated 2011. I didn't really have much money. I had student loans. I wasn't really necessarily ready to start a business. So I went to work for Walmart pharmacy and figured all right, I'll open up a compounding pharmacy in, let's say, five to 10 years, when I'm ready. To say that I did not get along with my boss is an understatement. At Walmart, I'll spare you the story of the day that I quit. But he forced me to essentially quit, and at the time there were no compounding pharmacies in the city of Philadelphia. But I had learned through these conferences and symposiums that every other major city had three or four compounding pharmacies.

Marc Bernstein: 12:33

Incredible yeah.

Jack Korbutov PharmD, RPh, FACA, FACVP: 12:34

So it was a major opportunity.

Marc Bernstein: 12:35

And this is a city I know. The other thing I don't know if I mentioned you might grow up in the greeting card business. My father was a distributor. Yeah, our customers were small corner pharmacies. So I could tell you at one time where all the pharmacies were hidden in Philadelphia and it's a city of pharmacies and no compounding pharmacy is amazing to me. Thinking back on it, it's pretty interesting.

Jack Korbutov PharmD, RPh, FACA, FACVP: 12:59

Yeah, regular retail pharmacy was a great business but with insurance and PBMs and a lot of other factors it's just really impossible to be in that business unless you specialize. We opened up a little 400-square-foot pharmacy compounding pharmacy.

Marc Bernstein: 13:15

Was that because of regulations in Pennsylvania? Maybe that it made it harder that there wasn't one in Philadelphia?

Jack Korbutov PharmD, RPh, FACA, FACVP: 13:21

No, it was just nobody did it. Yeah, nobody did it. And there were a lot of pharmacies that did a little bit of compounding, but no one that truly specialized in compounding.

Marc Bernstein: 13:29

So you saw an opening opportunity.

Jack Korbutov PharmD, RPh, FACA, FACVP: 13:31

Yeah, so again, that was just one year after pharmacy school. I was 25 at the time. We opened up a 400 square foot little pharmacy and then we expanded into a new location in 2019. It's a little bit bigger than that right now.

Marc Bernstein: 13:47

So great story. I'm sure it wasn't a smooth ride. We like to talk about this, entrepreneurs, you know it never is right. So what kind of challenges. And we only really have about a minute to two minutes before our break, but talk a little bit about the challenges you faced along the way over the last 12 years or so.

Jack Korbutov PharmD, RPh, FACA, FACVP: 14:05

Yeah, I mean, let's start with. A month after I opened, there was a huge catastrophe that took national news. One of the biggest compounding pharmacies in America sent out hundreds, if not thousands, of vials of injectable medication that had fungus in it. So dozens of people died, hundreds and hundreds of people got sick, and when I was 25 years old trying to go market and sell to new doctors to send me prescriptions and they knew they were hearing this in the news they didn't want any part of it. We got past that, and then there's been several regulation updates which required updated facilities. So the bottleneck just got tighter and tighter and harder to get through. But we've pushed and we've made it. So that's one of the reasons we moved in 2019. To make certain medications, we need certain facility updates and we're up to date on everything.

Marc Bernstein: 14:55

That's amazing. Actually, this is an extremely good time for a break, so let's do that, and you're actually going to hear a little bit more about the art of medicine, and we'll be back in a minute.

Announcer: 15:07

The art of medicine is a premier compounding pharmacy that specializes in helping people meet their maximum potential through an integrative and functional approach. Open for 12 years and licensed in 18 states, the Art of Medicine has obtained the prestigious PCAB accreditation, which only 1% of pharmacies achieve. Through optimizing hormones through bioidentical hormone replacement, reducing inflammatory disorders with low-dose naltrexone and optimizing mitochondrial and cognitive function with methylene blue, the art of medicine tailors medication to make you the best version of yourself. This is all done with personalized service and extreme ease of use. They truly embody the best of both worlds Small pharmacy service and respect with big pharmacy quality and ease. Email or call us today to see how we can help.

Marc Bernstein: 16:08

Should I get back home, or should I leave you all alone? That's a little bit of my music.

Marc Bernstein: 16:14

It's just a little plug for Fretz Bridges and Skins available on all streaming services. That's the opening song of the album and anyway, we're back here with Jack Korbutov and we're talking about challenges that you've had and I want to hear a little bit about the strengths you've developed. So the first big one was the fungus and the big news and the resistance by the physicians. How about some others that you faced over the last decade or so?

Jack Korbutov PharmD, RPh, FACA, FACVP: 16:41

Yeah, there's been tons, but to specifically go back to that one, I mean that was the first time. A month into the pharmacy opening, I experienced my first existential threat. I wasn't sure how to move on from that, and doctors wouldn't open their doors for me to come in and listen. In my field, although we sell the final product to the patient, we really market to providers because they have to know about our services. They ultimately make the decision, and doctors, nurse practitioners, physician assistants they're some of the most marketed and sold to people on earth with big pharma. So that was my first lesson.

Marc Bernstein: 17:18

Big pharma and big money behind the marketing as well.

Jack Korbutov PharmD, RPh, FACA, FACVP: 17:20

They have a little bit of money. Yeah, I would say so. But yeah, that was my first moment of okay. I need to wake up every day, believe in what I built, put my head down and just grind away, even if it's just 1% a day or 1% a week. I just need to get better, continue believing in what I'm doing, I'm going to do things right. I'm not going to do things like that pharmacy and move on and that's paid dividends.

Marc Bernstein: 17:43

So that's a strength that obviously you'll carry with you, which also came from wrestling, I'm sure, because it's one practice at a time, one match at a time, absolutely One of the things and I'm jumping up to the current for a little bit. We're going to talk next about your company culture and things like that but one of the things is I know you're wearing a lot of hats in the business, which is a typical entrepreneurial thing Dan Sullivan, strategic coach, talks a lot about that and you reach something called the ceiling of complexity and then you realize you have to do something about that, and one of the first things is to identify your unique abilities and start shedding the things that aren't your unique abilities. Is that something you can relate to that you're going through right now?

Jack Korbutov PharmD, RPh, FACA, FACVP: 18:28

Yeah, we're growing at about a rate of about 30% year over year, which is controlled growth. But it's still kind of scary doing what we do because what we do is so sensitive and we have to make sure everyone that's handling the medication, because it's compounding, because we're not just taking pre-manufactured medications and dispensing them, we're making everything we dispense. So, through the whole logistical flow of getting a prescription to making sure that the information is right, to compounding it correctly, to verifying it a few times, to actually sending it out to the patient, we need to make sure everything is perfect.

Marc Bernstein: 19:02

You can't have the people that work behind the counter at your local Walgreens or CVS.

Jack Korbutov PharmD, RPh, FACA, FACVP: 19:08

Surprisingly, a lot of them are really good at what we do. We've taken employees from other pharmacies like that in the past, but there's a lot of training that goes into it. So one of the big challenges I had was really giving up control of compounding. You know, I hired my first technician, I think in 2013. And it took me at least a month before I let her actually compound, just because I was so controlling over that. But once I let that go, then I realized, oh, I can now just focus on being a pharmacist. And then, once I hired my first pharmacist, I thought, oh, I can now focus on growing the business and so on and so forth. So we've developed ways to do it. We certainly could use a little more middle management now as we grow, but yeah, it's been a fun challenge teaching others how to execute the way I want them to execute.

Marc Bernstein: 19:55

Ang, I think that leads into a question you might have.

Ang Onorato: 19:59

Yeah, a whole topic of that. I love the way that you set that up, Marc, about where you get to that critical point and how do you grow from there. And Jack, as we talked about, I want to get your thoughts on sort of your human capital right, the humans behind the work and your culture. But I really wanted to point out to you that I love the name of the company, the Art of Medicine, so I'm a big believer in what I do.

Ang Onorato: 20:25

As well as that, there's art in all of us, right, and I hesitated that for many years in my own life and business because I thought artists are musicians and artists, but there is an art in everything and it's tapping into that. So with that, I'm wondering you know, what is it that you look for when you build your culture? You just mentioned how you hired certain functional people to come in and help you. But what do you look for when you're hiring certain people to to that fit in with not just your company and vision but the impact you want to make people that fall into that the art of pharmacy or just of their? I'm just curious how you bring and your values.

Marc Bernstein: 21:01

Your values, I would add to your values yeah, yeah.

Ang Onorato: 21:05

And how do you see building that in the future?

Jack Korbutov PharmD, RPh, FACA, FACVP: 21:08

great questions. Um, and I am a very, very firm believer in hiring for culture rather than a technical fit. Um, I've made the mistake of hiring the great uh technician or the great compounder. That didn't necessarily fit our culture values and they've lasted a few months and they kind of drag everyone down and what they are great in in terms of expertise it hurts the business altogether. So I'm a big believer. Culture is everything. I think everyone performs better when the culture is good.

Jack Korbutov PharmD, RPh, FACA, FACVP: 21:40

And it's funny, I go to conferences and talk to other compounders and it seems like everyone's complaining about their employees. And I'm thrilled about my employees. We have an amazing culture. They're very tied into the business. They really care about the metrics.

Jack Korbutov PharmD, RPh, FACA, FACVP: 21:52

I'm a data nerd so I try to track as much as I can so that and I present them this data every month. We have a monthly meeting. We go over a report card for every part of the pharmacy and it's very interesting to see that, although my employees don't have technical ownership of the pharmacy, they take a lot of ownership of their metrics and making sure that they're bettering themselves every month. And I think most employees, most people, just have that drive, or the right people have that drive where they want to improve, where they're working, and hey, they all happen to get along. We do our happy hours, we do our birthday celebrations, take them out to dinners. We always celebrate success, either a day's success or a month record success. I try to get them as involved in the excitement of building a great product, a great business.

Ang Onorato: 22:41

Well, I just wanted to point out real quick on this. One last thing, Marc, when you talk about the metrics, I think I love how you make it something that everybody buys into, because I think most companies the large companies they make it a very micromanaging thing and startup companies are often too busy to realize the value of that. So I love how you tie in the metrics that drive the business, with everybody feeling bought into that and seeing the work product every day. Very impactful actually.

Marc Bernstein: 23:08

We are. As always, the show's going by very quickly when you're having fun, it just flies by, and I want to ask you about your future vision, as we always do. So we are live on the radio on June 5th 2024. And if you and I were and recording the podcast obviously at the same time, and if this were June 5th of 2027, jack and we're talking looking back on the last three years what would have to happen for you to feel that that was a successful period in your business and your life?

Jack Korbutov PharmD, RPh, FACA, FACVP: 23:38

Yeah, I'm a big journey man. I really love the journey of growing and succeeding and reaping the rewards of that. I think in three years we have to be at a new facility, a much bigger facility. We would like to incorporate something called sterile compounding, which would really expand a lot of our services and our offerings in the 20 states that we're licensed in and, even more importantly, the local audience that we serve. We really want to be an impactful can you use that word again hub of health to providers and patients in the Philadelphia area. That's very important.

Marc Bernstein: 24:10

I think you mentioned perhaps a second location as well, yeah.

Jack Korbutov PharmD, RPh, FACA, FACVP: 24:13

So we want to expand. We want to move our current location and expand into a much bigger building that will allow us to expand on those services.

Marc Bernstein: 24:22

So we are only a few minutes away from finishing, so we're doing a lightning round of questions. It's a great vision. Have you anticipated the challenge in achieving that vision for three years?

Jack Korbutov PharmD, RPh, FACA, FACVP: 24:33

Yeah, we're already looking for a new location now Okay.

Marc Bernstein: 24:36

So finding the location is one of the things. Location now Okay. So that finding the location is one of the one of the things. Um, you are, um, a relatively young man, but you requested to be asked about your legacy. So I, you're very forward thinking and I I respect that and you and I know you have a lot of vision, so tell us about that. What would you like your legacy to be?

Jack Korbutov PharmD, RPh, FACA, FACVP: 24:53

You know what I I was. My dad was my idol and my mom too. I mean what she went through to to help the family and support the family and be the family rock. Um, but really, my dad, how he went from nothing to what he did. Uh, I just want to continue his legacy and it's very important for me that my son, or any future kids, really look up and and kind of view me the same, and that that sounds kind of selfish, but I know how much that impacted me and how it changed my future and I really want to do that for him.

Marc Bernstein: 25:23

Do you have siblings, by the way? Only child, only child. So, um. So the other question is um you know, if you could speak to your younger self, your much younger self, what advice would you give you?

Jack Korbutov PharmD, RPh, FACA, FACVP: 25:40

Yeah, Develop a sense of stoicism. Um, don't ride the highs too high and don't get too down on yourself. Um, tomorrow's another day, You'll move on. Keep believing in the dream. Uh, and you'll, you'll be okay.

Marc Bernstein: 25:49

Going to fly a couple other questions, cause we actually have like one more minute, two minutes. Uh, you'd like to listen to music?

Jack Korbutov PharmD, RPh, FACA, FACVP: 25:56

Yeah, I love some uh what's your favorite music? I'm into EDM, a little bit of hip hop, and the pharmacy plays a host of different things, so get into it all.

Marc Bernstein: 26:06

Via my son. I'm an EDM guy. He's turned me on to EDM. In fact, we're going to see going to the Sphere in July not EDM, we're actually seeing Dead and Company but there'll be a lot of edm outside, I'm sure, and lots going on there with all that. Uh, how about um books? You read what's your favorite book or what are you reading right now?

Jack Korbutov PharmD, RPh, FACA, FACVP: 26:26

you know what I? I'm ashamed to actually admit this I'm reading um, oh, what's the book? Um, you know, I forget the name of the book. Uh, think and grow rich, ah yes why are you ashamed to read?

Marc Bernstein: 26:40

that's one of the best books ever. It's an amazing book, but I can't believe.

Jack Korbutov PharmD, RPh, FACA, FACVP: 26:42

I'm-.

Ang Onorato: 26:43

I think everybody should read it.

Jack Korbutov PharmD, RPh, FACA, FACVP: 26:44

Yeah, I'm 12 years into my journey and reading it for the first time.

Marc Bernstein: 26:47

The other one if you get into it. Napoleon Hill's the Law of Success is my other favorite book. It's a build around studying the laws of success. So I think that's about it for Founders Forum today, and I appreciate you being here, jack. Thank you so much, great interview. It's been a lot of fun. Ang, thanks for being here. Tj, thanks for your help in the control room, and we look forward to seeing you all next week.

Announcer: 27:24

time with Founders Forum today and you found value to take with you throughout your day. Join us again next week for another episode of Founders Forum on WWDB Talk Radio and always at the Founders Forum show page at WWDBAMcom.