Announcer: 0:00

The following programming is sponsored by Marc J Bernstein. The views expressed do not necessarily reflect the views of this station, its management or Beasley Media Group. Entrepreneur, founder, author and financial advisor, Marc Bernstein helps high-performing business owners turn their visions into reality. Through his innovative work and the Forward Focus Forums, Marc connects entrepreneurs to resources that fuel their success. Founders Forum is a radio show and podcast where entrepreneurs share their journeys, revealing the lessons they've learned and the stories behind their success. Join Marc and his guests for a mix of inspiration, valuable insights and a little fun. Now let's dive in.

Marc Bernstein: 0:40

Good morning America.

Marc Bernstein: 0:42

How are you? Good morning America. How are you? It's a cloudy day, but we're feeling great inside the studio today and we have Ryan Sullivan is with me again today how we doing. He was on our last show and Ryan is the founder and CEO of Podcast Principles.

Marc Bernstein: 1:03

And our guest today is Sandesh and we will formally introduce him in a minute. And we always have a topic of the day and I always, I always. I just mentioned this, but we talked about getting to know people deeper on the last show that we did with Ryan and a book by David Brooks on that subject and, um, I always. What I love about this show is the more I talk to people, the more I get to know them. And in talking about, uh, for our guests today, for Sandesh, we were talking about, uh, the, you know, what passions do you have? Because you know we have, we have some very serious questions. We're going to ask him at the end. But so what passions do you have? Because you know we have, we have some very serious questions. We're going to ask him at the end. But so, what passions do you have?

Marc Bernstein: 1:48

And he lit up and he said, oh, I love the fish. And Ryan said I love the fish too. So I realized there's a little topic there which is because people, there's a, there's a, there's an allure, allure there, there you go. Another pun Because Sandesh said, by the way, he's hooked on fishing. So we've got all these little puns going. So there's an allure about fishing that I have, but yet I'm not a fisherman. I've done a little bit here and there, but it's one of the things I aim to do at some point. So I'm going to ask Ryan first, and then we'll do Sandesh, and then we'll introduce him formally. So you fish, what do you do and what is the allure to you of fishing?

Ryan Sullivan: 2:34

Yeah, so you know I grew up on this. I grew up in a super rural area, so like that's something that everybody would fish hunt. That was just very normal, right. It was almost weird if you didn't do that. But my dad also was really into it. He would go to a thousand islands every year and go fishing. So now I bass fish a lot because I live in South Jersey and there's a lot of bass fishing there, but there's also pike and pickerel and a little bit of everything catfish but I love to see bass jumping out of the water. So that's it for me. That's what I enjoy and I just like the kind of serenity of it.

Marc Bernstein: 3:02

Nice. Serenity is one of the things that appeals to me about it. Sandesh, how about you? You do a different kind of fishing we just talked about, so let's talk about that, yeah, I think for me.

Sandesh Sukumaran: 3:12

I think anything. You know, you put me next to a body of water with a fishing pole, that's all I need. You know, I think that's like the zen moment for me. I forget everything, all the worries in my life. It goes away, it just disappears and I can just sit there for hours and my last cast if I do then there's another 30 minutes after my last cast. My real last cast is. So it's that way for me. It's just the Zen moment when I pick up a fishing rod and go. It doesn't need to be a particular fish, it can be anything, you know.

Marc Bernstein: 3:51

So serenity Zen, I love it. Did you start fishing lures?

Sandesh Sukumaran: 3:55

our dads tell us about their you know success stories about fishing and for me it started with hearing about his fishing expeditions or you know success stories. So we used to go for vacations every year to his ancestral home and it was right, his house was right next to a river and for one month it was like pure fun for us. Me and my brother we used to be there. You put us like if there was 48 hours in a day, we would be there like 40 hours where was that?

Marc Bernstein: 4:43

where did you grow up, by the way? Where did you?

Sandesh Sukumaran: 4:45

so I grew up in bombay, uh, which is now called mumbai, but my, my parents, my dad, came from a state called kerala, which is, uh, it's called heaven on earth, it's called god's own country and it's it's unbelievable. It's like if you were to to fly in a plane and get down you would feel like you're landing in Amazon jungle. It is so lush.

Marc Bernstein: 5:12

Is that South India?

Sandesh Sukumaran: 5:14

Yeah, it is. If you imagine the peninsula, it's on the south west side of India. Very nice it was like the best time of my life. Nice, that's where I picked up fishing from nice.

Marc Bernstein: 5:29

So we learned a little bit about fishing and and the benefits to the human soul of it today, absolutely so Sandesh sukumaran is the founder and ceo of outcome logics, a tech enabled staffing firm.

Marc Bernstein: 5:43

Recognized as a recognized as a Tech 50 finalist by the Pittsburgh Technology Council. He's coming to us from Pittsburgh Pennsylvania, by the way, the other side of the state With over two decades of experience in technology recruitment and enterprise talent solutions. Sandesh has built Outcome Logics around speed, precision and innovation, leveraging proprietary tools like screen talent to deliver expert-vetted candidates faster. A self-funded entrepreneur, he's passionate about transforming hiring through competency-based screening and has worked with major clients in retail, banking, mortgage utility industries. Sandesh is also an advocate for responsible AI and hiring and is actively building peer networks for senior IT and business leaders. So welcome Sandesh.

Sandesh Sukumaran: 6:35

Thanks, Marc. Formerly nice to meet you, Ryan.

Ryan Sullivan: 6:40

You as well.

Marc Bernstein: 6:42

Sandesh, one thing that I just read, that just occurred to me you're maybe one of the only tech founders, because a lot of what you do is based on technology that is self-funded. And that kind of leads me to how did you start, how did you do that, how did you get into this career in the first place and how did you go about? How did you get into this career in the first place and how did you go about funding the company?

Sandesh Sukumaran: 7:08

Absolutely. Thanks, Marc. Again. You know, back in the day, when the career choices for most of expatriates like me, when we start back home, it's either you had to be a doctor or an engineer and I chose to be in talent acquisition or recruiting. You know, about 25 years back there was a big boom. I'm sure you all remember. There was a big scare of Y2K. That happened during 98, 99 and 2000. And there were a lot of need for Y2K engineers and of course, to find them you needed someone who's good at networking, good at finding people and bringing them on board. So a services company from Pittsburgh hired me in Mumbai to find these people and I used to literally go out and sip a cup of chai. Chai is tea.

Marc Bernstein: 8:16

I'm a big fan of chai, by the way. I love chai Chai guy here.

Sandesh Sukumaran: 8:21

You should have chai in Mumbai. They make it a very small quantity but it is the best, it's heaven. So I used to go out and recruit these people. I helped that company recruit about 100 or so Y2K engineers and when there was a position that became available in Pittsburgh office, they kind of transferred me over to Pittsburgh and that's how my journey started in the recruiting side.

Marc Bernstein: 8:47

So, and then? What happened then? How long did you work for that company?

Sandesh Sukumaran: 8:52

So I worked with them for about 11 or 12 years until 2011.

Sandesh Sukumaran: 9:00

That's where I was super hands-on, found a lot of good qualities that I had, sharpened my skills as a recruiter and found out there were a lot of challenges that came along because some of the inefficiencies that were there with lack of tools and such. But then in 2011, I went on to go and work for a startup. I was one of the co-founders there. I was mandated to build a professional services for them. We scaled that company to about 3000 employees globally and during the peak of pandemic, I decided to start my own company. When it got acquired, it was a great opportunity, when the event happened, for me to kind of take my options and do what I wanted to do about making sure that candidates or people who are looking for opportunities really are able to highlight their competencies and how could I make sure that those competencies are what gets them to the next stage and it pairs the customer and the candidates in the right way. So that's that's what what led me to do what I'm doing right now.

Marc Bernstein: 10:30

So I want to get back to that, but you answered the funding question, so the options you got from that company is what funded your new company.

Sandesh Sukumaran: 10:36

Yeah, you're right, Marc, you know. So I I've kind of took that and of course I it would be a real miss if I um did not mention. Um, my wife had a significant role, because it's very hard to use that fund which you already got in the bank account to go in and start a new experiment right, because at that point you don't know what is going to happen. So a big salute to my wife for allowing me to do what I'm doing right now.

Marc Bernstein: 11:09

I hear you, my wife you know I'm on an entrepreneurial journey myself and she's a saint for a lot of the things I've done that you know there were experiments and risks and and she's been through it all with me, so I completely understand that. You know she's, you know there's the woman behind the man. Sometimes these days it's the man behind the woman, but whatever it is it's, it's a powerful thing.

Sandesh Sukumaran: 11:34

Absolutely.

Marc Bernstein: 11:35

So you were starting to talk about what you were striving to do by matching the right talent with the right companies, and you have a unique take on how you do that. You want to talk about that a little bit.

Sandesh Sukumaran: 11:45

Absolutely so. That comes, Marc, from some of the inefficiencies that I had as a talent acquisition professional right. So what typically used to happen is when you're especially if you're working for a services company or staffing company and if you are not a technologist, you get handed over different kind of roles with different skills associated with it, and which often leads to you being specialist in sourcing or finding candidates. But what happens is when you find that candidate and you notice that they have all the skills or the role mentioned which you were looking for, you got the guy right. But what is there beyond that is finding out what is the competency level that the customer is looking for, and if you start asking them without knowing it yourself, it's failure written all over it.

Sandesh Sukumaran: 12:53

So I used to spend a lot of time talking to those candidates who there are two scenarios that I want to highlight here.

Sandesh Sukumaran: 13:03

One is there are candidates who would willfully exaggerate the competency level right For, of course, various reasons they want better rate, they want to get the job.

Sandesh Sukumaran: 13:19

And there are the second scenario where candidates genuinely don't know what their competency level is, but to get the job they would always want to say they are 10 out of 10 or 9 out of 10, right, but is that the reality? Would always want to say they are 10 out of 10 or 9 out of 10, right, but is that the reality? And, as a recruiting professional, if you are not a technologist, are you the right person to make that assessment? And, because of that, inefficiencies generally when the hiring managers get a resume in hand, which is another topic that I want to talk about is that transformation did not happen and it is still. I'm sad, but it is the truth is not a lot of companies see that the need for it, which is what we have built. So it is our ability to find these candidates, our ability to use a technologist, not a recruiter, to find those competency areas and make sure that they have the required competency, which you know is what we provide generally.

Marc Bernstein: 14:20

We're about to take a break, but I have one quick question. You must measure the success rate after that, In other words, how many people stick retention, and I have to think that that improves the retention greatly and that's something that you can present to potential customers. Am I right about that?

Sandesh Sukumaran: 14:39

Absolutely, Marc. I think if you find the right talent with the right competency, they end up being at least 80%, or 70% to 80% more likely to stay on the job longer than what they signed up for, compared to, I think, if you didn't put them in the right place, if they didn't have the right competency.

Marc Bernstein: 14:59

And you measure that and you're able to document that that's the case, correct, definitely. That sounds like a very powerful value proposition to me, absolutely. So with that we're going to take a quick break and we'll be right back on Founders Forum.

Announcer: 15:13

Hiring the right talent doesn't have to be a gamble. At Outcome Logix, we understand that it's not just about filling positions quickly. It's about getting the right skills for your specific project. We go beyond the resume by leveraging industry experts to screen and validate the competencies that truly matter for your team. Our platform combines expert insights with cutting edge AI to ensure the candidates we provide are a perfect fit for your team. Our platform combines expert insights with cutting-edge AI to ensure the candidates we provide are a perfect fit for your project's needs. So your team is ready to deliver results faster, smarter and with precision. Whether you're building out tech development or application teams, we tailor our solutions to match your unique requirements. Don't waste time on mismatched hires. Partner with Outcome Logix to streamline your hiring process and get the talent you need every time. Visit outcomelogix. com to learn how we can help you hire the right way today.

Marc Bernstein: 16:04

We are back on Founders Forum with our guests today Sandesh Sukumaran and Ryan I know you're chomping at the bit to ask some questions.

Ryan Sullivan: 16:14

Oh yeah, so why don't we? There's many that I have, but I'll ask one for the younger generation here.

Marc Bernstein: 16:20

You are a man of many questions.

Ryan Sullivan: 16:21

I have unlimited. You don't want to hang out with me because it never ends. This is why I do podcasting for a living right. So what are you seeing for those? You know, let's just say you know, maybe millennials, or even to Gen Z right, a lot of the topics and conversations around hiring with, say, my age group I'm on 26 is, oh, you know, they just job hop and you know, they just you know. Do they want to find the right company or um? Do they want to look around and experience all these different jobs? Do you have any sort of just even opinion or anecdotal experience about maybe this younger generation um in the job Marc? I'm just curious, or a way to predict that, yeah sure, or predictions wherever you want to take it, Sandesh.

Sandesh Sukumaran: 17:05

Yeah, I think, looking at the positives you know we can all talk about the negatives, but one thing that stands out you know we all have our. My son would be hitting the job market in several years and we have family members who are in at that stage what I feel is, I think Millennials, or people who are coming out, you know they have an advantage of put high energy. You know they they are. They have a lot of fresh ideas. They are not tainted by any past failures that they bring along. You know, if you have, especially, I think, in the technology side of the world, a lot of customers, they tell us to not send me anyone who is 15 years or more. You know.

Sandesh Sukumaran: 17:57

So, you need those people who are never biased by the failures. They are, you know, willing to take an idea, contribute to it, make it more better and then execute on it at high energy, longer hours. You know they do want to success. You know they want to make sure that they are able to implement those ideas and make it workable.

Ryan Sullivan: 18:22

Yeah and, yeah, and at any age, that's what any company would want, right?

Sandesh Sukumaran: 18:27

Definitely.

Ryan Sullivan: 18:27

That's the mindset.

Sandesh Sukumaran: 18:29

And I think one more thing that I feel that could play into their advantage is, of course, they need to be focused, which is what the topic is, the product the topic is. But AI I feel especially the Gen AI would make the experiences a little bit more democratic in nature. The disadvantage a lot of fresh engineers or fresh graduates had is hey, you don't have the functional experience. Now, that will be an even playing field for those professionals because you know information is at the fingertip, you can just prompt it and get what you needed.

Ryan Sullivan: 19:12

Yeah, and now your job is not. Jobs are not necessarily taken, they're changed, right. And now your job is to learn how to use ai for your job. And I know, uh, I just helped my girlfriend use chat gpt and she's a teacher, um, and it works for everybody. So I won't continue on that.

Marc Bernstein: 19:31

It's a whole nother rabbit hole, but I'll pass it back well, I just want to comment that I think this whole thing of gen z and you know I mean you know a lot of people complain about that you're you're looking at it as a positive and saying these are great people to put in these positions.

Sandesh Sukumaran: 19:47

Absolutely, and I think we what, as part of, I think, our evolution in our company is, we have created a client interface, which I wanted to talk to you about, and we have specifically made a section called strivers. And we specifically made a section called strivers and I hope, since this is a radio show, maybe I'm being quoted here, but I wanted to call it night owls, but I changed it and said it's strivers. What this means is, you know, specifically segment out people who have less than five years experience zero to five years and put them in that category. If you've already seen it, you know I have my first driver video that we put in with someone who has less than five years. He went on and said hey, this is who I am, you know. So we are creating that segment for people who are less than five years experience zero to five years.

Marc Bernstein: 20:39

Very cool. That's a very positive message. And you wanted to mention about the interface. Do you want to do that? And then I want to get to your future vision.

Sandesh Sukumaran: 20:48

Yeah so I think what we? I feel that we are in the business of innovation, right, and we happen to be in the staffing side. That's what we did and you know. So we are applying all the functional knowledge that we had, but we are essentially innovators. One such, I feel, is innovation needs to be making sure experiences that each stakeholder have that work with us is paramount. Have that work with us is paramount, which includes each section of stakeholders that we deal with, including our internal stakeholders recruiters, account managers, hr managers, candidates that we deal with including our vendors. We build those interfaces. Now where our vendors get to see their candidate journey, now where our vendors get to see their candidate journey.

Sandesh Sukumaran: 21:46

I want to talk about our clients. Imagine this most of the 90% of the client managers, they walk into an interview with a resume in hand which has all the ingredients of the job description which was written, and with AI, that's another thing that the other side black side of AI is candidates can write their JD resume based on job description. So if you have not transformed from going to an interview with a resume, you are losing a lot of time. Going to an interview with a resume, you are losing a lot of time. So, talking about some of the efficiencies that we built in is our customers can see the candidates, who these candidates are and who screened these candidates based on competencies.

Sandesh Sukumaran: 22:34

And now we are also putting like I mentioned about strivers, we are putting fractional talent pool because, as we go into in the next three or four years, a lot of these shops will be very fractional in nature, including chief technology officers being fractional, cfos being fractional. So we have one segment which is fractional talent pool. Uh in, and some of them who are so specific, like you know, we can't discount people who have 10, 15 years experience. They're specialists in certain areas, so we are calling them as Elite 10. We have a section for that.

Marc Bernstein: 23:14

Gotcha, so I think that's going to lead to your future vision. So, if we're, if this is May, it's May now of 2025, and we're talking and it's May of 2028, and you're looking back on the last three years, Sandesh, what would have to happen and this could be personal, it could be particularly business, but anything you want to mention what does your life look like for you to say that that was a successful three-year period in your business and personal life?

Sandesh Sukumaran: 23:45

uh, like the you mean the last three years, or?

Sandesh Sukumaran: 23:48

no future three years, yeah, the next three years, I being in the technology side uh, being an innovator it is. It is a bug that never keeps biting you. It keeps biting you forever. So what I've seen is, if you are innovating, one innovation leads to the other innovation and it keeps going. So I see us being, in addition to be the best staffing company in the world. We will evolve to become MSP and also a marketplace where you could find fractional talent or even interviewers, that who can come in and interview for you. So it would be MSP, managed service provider and plus a marketplace. Those are the innovations it will go into.

Marc Bernstein: 24:48

So basically, to be the best in class through new innovations would be your vision.

Sandesh Sukumaran: 24:52

Absolutely absolutely.

Marc Bernstein: 24:53

Anything on the personal side three years from now.

Sandesh Sukumaran: 24:56

I want to travel a lot. I want to, I think, see going to many places along with my family and, you know, open more offices throughout the world.

Marc Bernstein: 25:11

Do you have other offices today?

Sandesh Sukumaran: 25:13

We have office in Kochi and a place in UAE in.

Marc Bernstein: 25:19

Dubai oh, interesting. And how many employees do you have total today? Place in UAE in Dubai Okay, oh, interesting. And how many employees do you have total today?

Sandesh Sukumaran: 25:23

So we have about 20 people here in the US and about 10 people in India.

Marc Bernstein: 25:29

Gotcha, do you need to staff up yourself further in order to accomplish your vision?

Sandesh Sukumaran: 25:38

We are looking to keep the staff. Of course there would be a 20%, 30% increase in the staff, but being a technology company, we rely a lot more on the technology side of the world instead of, you know, bloating ourselves up.

Marc Bernstein: 25:56

I imagine AI is going to be a big piece of what you do going forward as well.

Sandesh Sukumaran: 26:00

Yeah, we are definitely looking at using AI in a responsible way. We're looking to put a governance team in place to make sure that whatever we do, it is done responsibly.

Marc Bernstein: 26:13

Being used responsibly. Yeah, I thought you were saying that. Excellent, so I'm sorry, I just got interrupted here on my uh, on my iPad, um, let me just uh, there we go. Sorry about that. So, uh, fandesh, um, what if you were looking back, um, and you could speak to your younger self, what advice would you give you?

Sandesh Sukumaran: 26:45

I would say there's nothing called as 90% in. It has to be 100%. You can't be waiting to be perfect. You know start, do the right thing when no one is watching you. You know, those are the things that I would tell my 20 year or you know younger self.

Marc Bernstein: 27:11

You said a lot there. That's a lot of good. That's a lot of good stuff. I love that. One last thing, because we have about half a minute Back to fishing for a second. You mentioned steelheads and the experience of fishing for steelheads.

Sandesh Sukumaran: 27:26

Want to just talk about that real quick, my God. You want me to go back and do it right now, but the steelhead fishing season is over and I can't wait for it to start again in October. That is the best experience I had. To see hundreds of fish in front of you and, unfortunately, if you are not good at it, you know it can be as boring as well, but steelhead fishing is the best thing I've done so far, by far hands down.

Marc Bernstein: 27:59

Well, there you go, for you fisher people out there, fish steelheads, check it out, check it out. Hey, thanks so much, Sandesh. It's been a great show. We really appreciate you being here and I wish you all the best as your future progress comes along. And thank you all for listening today on founders forum. We'll see you next week.