Announcer: 0:01

Entrepreneurs, founders, author, and financial advisor Marc Bernstein helps high-performing business owners turn their business into reality through its innovative work and the forward-focused form that connects entrepreneurs to resources that fuel their success. Founders Forum is a radio show and podcast where entrepreneurs share their journeys, revealing the lessons they've learned and the stories behind their success. Join Marc and his guests for a mix of inspiration, valuable insights, and a little fun. Now, let's dive in.

Marc Bernstein: 0:34

Good morning, America. How are you? It may not be morning when you're listening, and you may not be in America, but wherever you are, um I'm wishing you morning because morning is a time for a new day, opportunity, you know, perhaps some sunshine, you know, a lot of good things happen in the morning. So uh good morning, even if it's not morning to you. Uh excited about today's show. We have uh our guest today is Nick. You'll meet him in a minute. And Matt Wampler is back, founder and CEO of Clear Cogs, who was on one of our previous shows, and he's going to co-host with us today. Good morning, Matt. It's the beginning of my hostile takeover of the Founders Forum. Ah, here we go. Here we go. He's an aggressive entrepreneur. And we have Nick Martin with us. I'll formally introduce Nick in a minute. But in the meantime, um I want to talk to you guys, because I know you both like the subject about AI. It's on everyone's tongues these days. Um and uh, you know, it's changing every day. So uh and on your show, uh Matt, you got to talk about a little bit what you're seeing. Let's start with Nick this time. I usually start with the co-host, but let's start with Nick, uh, because you have a little different view of AI and where it's going. So what are your thoughts?

Nick Martin: 1:53

Yeah. Uh well, thanks for having me, Marc. Matt, good to see you. Um for me, uh as a as an entrepreneur, somebody who I think I consider myself tech savvy, it feels like it's the first time in my life where I'm starting to feel behind on a subject because AI is moving so quickly. And um, so I started talking to uh one of my business advisors, some of my friends that are more in the AI space of like, what how do I just stay up to date on this? Um I started listening to a lot of podcasts because that's how I get information on business ideas and on AI. And um, it's some really interesting stuff's coming out right now in terms of um, I'm sure people, if they follow the space, have heard of like agentic AI and having agents to do things. And those are mostly limited to different applications. So you're talking to Salesforce or you're talking to whatever platform, but there hasn't been anything yet that talks to all of them and really acts as that assistant to you, like at on the, you know, you log into your computer and you say, I have a business meeting here and I need to book travel, look at my customer list, and see how much money I have in the bank, all in one thing. That's called model context protocol or MCP, and they're starting to get into the space. Uh, anthropic with Claude is starting to uh is the pioneer behind this, and it we're starting to get into uh some really interesting territory.

Matt Wampler: 3:13

So do you think that's the future? Do you think it's gonna be a one model that you deal with that outsources everything, or do you think we're gonna have different agents that I'm gonna interface with based on what I want?

Nick Martin: 3:27

I think what where it seems to be going is you'll still have those agents that represent the individual apps, but then say, you know, um carbon reform or or your company, ClearCogs, would have its own customized agent that would talk to all those other agents. Um that's where I see it going, where there's still it's agents talking to agents, not one agent to rule them all necessarily.

Marc Bernstein: 3:53

You know, I I I my context on history is a little different than your guys of of technology because I was old enough to have been at the 1964 World's Fair, and I remember the biggest thing that made an impression upon me was um I think it was GE had or ATT or somebody had picture phones. You know, we were gonna have phones with that you could talk to people, and they had it on the Jetsons. And all those years of mobile phones, I kept saying, Where's the picture phone? Where whatever happened, then all of a sudden we bypassed that. We got these little devices that are everything, you know, that you can watch movies on, that you can talk to people, you can see each other. And I think of this, so my my frame of reference is the is the uh Jetsons and Rosie the robot, right? So to me, what you're talking about with um with agents is they're really like virtual robots in a sense, or what we what we thought the robots were gonna be. Like I don't really think we're gonna have a robot that walks around serving you food in the in the house and you know, put you know, doing all that. It's how it works. But I'm sure I'm sure that is too. I'm and I'm sure in restaurants they'll be using them, but I think it's more so that it's like a robotic kind of agent is gonna be handling your whole life for you in the way that you're talking about it, Nick.

Nick Martin: 5:12

It's exactly right. I mean, we thought initially it was gonna be a lot of these blue-collar jobs that we're getting uh rid of, but now it's white-collar computer scientists that are being uh replaced. And now everybody's called a prompt engineer, which basically means I'm really good at talking to AI. And that's now who's paying, you know, getting the jobs at Google and whatnot.

Marc Bernstein: 5:32

Yeah, it's funny because that's what they were saying to manufacturing a few years ago. They said your job's not gonna be replaced by technology if you know technology. But, you know, meaning that if you can talk to AI and you know how to conduct the technology, then you'll have a job. Otherwise, you probably won't. Yeah, AI is not gonna take your job. Somebody using AI is gonna take your job. Exactly. Another way to say it. Well, good conversation there, fellas. So uh so Nick Martin, let me introduce him, is co-founder and COO of Carbon Reform, a climate tech startup which is transforming commercial buildings into high-performance spaces through improved indoor air quality, energy efficiency, and carbon removal. Their modular retrofit technology offers a profitable, sustainable, and scalable solution to the climate crisis, reducing emissions while cutting HVAC energy use. Nick brings a background in chemical engineering chemical engineering, um, went to my alma mater, by the way, the University of Delaware, which is a big school for that, for chemical engineering. And also he has public sector innovation in his background to his work building a healthier and low carbon future. So again, welcome Nick. And I just want to say that um we talked about this offline and we'll get to it later, but we talk about the scalable solution to the climate crisis, but that's not why everyone comes to you. And we we've talked about the motivation, we'll get to that a little bit later, but um it definitely is a byproduct or a primary product of of what it is you do, which I congratulate you on because I think that's really important. A lot more importance than a lot of people put on it, I think. So, Nick, where I'd like to start is because everybody has a reason why they became an entrepreneur, and you have a personal story that was not, you know, not pleasant that uh that pushed you in that direction. So if you're open to it, let's talk about that a little bit.

Nick Martin: 7:28

Of course. And I uh you know, we were talking about this beforehand. I do think I always had the bug looking at you know decisions I made growing up. Uh I I didn't tell you this story, Marc, before, but I think it's always a fun and cute way to start. Is I used to not eat my Halloween candy and upsell it on the bus for the weeks after to kids. And like, you know, I'd find new business models for the lemonade stand as opposed to like, why would I just sell pure lemonade? So uh my dad was also he owned a chimney sweep company growing up, so I was exposed to that, you know, um, him working late, talking to customers. Um, so I always had the bug. I would say really the the uh what lit the fire under me to really jump in head on um at an earlier age um is the the unexpected passing of both of my parents uh about 15 months apart. And this was in 2017 to 2018. And um I'm the oldest child. Uh it was unexpected. So as you can imagine, there was a lot of um stuff that I had to like jump in, stop life, clean up, understand how things worked that I I knew nothing about is state law or about you know uh 401ks and finance and sure what have you. And um I I think it taught me a couple of things that really um helped me personally and just professionally in this entrepreneurial uh the entrepreneurial endeavors is uh one, I can learn anything if I just put my mind to it. So it helps me when I go into, for example, I'm in HVAC, know nothing about the space, but I didn't know anything about some of those things, uh, like a state law when my parents passed. And you know, I just trust my gut that I'll be able to uh to understand it enough and just like dive right in.

Marc Bernstein: 9:14

Um I didn't think I didn't think about that, but it it does yeah, you did have to learn a lot quickly. So when you know you have to, and then you look back, you say, Well, that wasn't so hard, I could do that again, you know.

Nick Martin: 9:24

Yeah, yeah. Uh, because some of that stuff uh it's it's a grim way to look at it, but the world does not stop when it seems to stop for you. So a lot of things can happen, and if you don't have the right understanding or support systems in those times of crisis, like it's it's you know, really bad implications that can affect you just personally and your family down the line. And so that that was a life lesson. And then the other part is life is short, it's unexpected, you don't know what's gonna happen next. And I when I see that from a business standpoint, and my talk to founders, you know, there's never a right time to start a company. Uh, so why not start it today? And that's really what pushed me into it.

Marc Bernstein: 10:05

Uh Matt Moins to ask you something quickly.

Matt Wampler: 10:07

Yeah, Nick, I'm I'm sitting here at the radio station, got a beautiful view of the Philadelphia skyline, and all I can see are these giant HVAC units on every rooftop. And I I guess I've never really looked and noticed them, but they're everywhere. I mean, uh how big of a problem is this or big of an opportunity is this? And why why hadn't it been done?

Nick Martin: 10:33

Yeah, you're you're uh selling the the technology for us right there, Matt. I appreciate it. Uh perhaps I can do do a quick of what a carbon capture is and why the opportunities in the built environment. Um we see I'm all about utilizing existing infrastructure to solve whatever problem is in the world. I think that's really an exciting opportunity as opposed to building new stuff, because that's not always the answer. Um, and we have, as you've seen, large buildings, cities around the world, urbanization. Um, how can we use that to our uh advantage specifically as we're doing it with climate? Um, well, those large HVAC systems on tops of buildings that you might see if you're in a high rise or you've seen on a parking garage, um, that's what moves billions of tons of air through just commercial buildings in the US alone. We're not talking about other countries around the world. So that got us thinking of if we're trying to solve this climate crisis specifically of carbon emissions, it's really tough to capture carbon dioxide, which is um the one of the drivers of global warming. It's really tough to capture it in the middle of the atmosphere in Iceland or in the South Pacific because it is uh a fraction of a percent of the total air volume. So you're capturing like a little, it's a needle in a haystack of getting that right molecule.

Matt Wampler: 11:58

Yeah, it's like going into the ocean. It's everything's just floating around versus a stream where it's all coming to you.

Nick Martin: 12:05

Right. And it's higher concentrations because humans inside of the buildings are also exhaling CO2. So you actually have an opportunity to capture, get a better bang for your buck, I guess I would say, of removing it inside of the building before it becomes dispersed and diluted outside.

Matt Wampler: 12:22

Was that a novel idea? I mean, or or is this something people had written papers on? Like there's an opportunity here.

Nick Martin: 12:29

There's I think there's a lot of uh industries that are like this, or a lot of uh topics where there definitely was academia talking about it. There was some research around the effects of CO2 on indoor air quality. Um uh there was talks about we spend so much energy on heating and cooling in our buildings, and the solution was always like, let's make a more efficient HVAC system. Everybody was so focused on efficiency and not on conservation, which is really what these conversations always come back to. We were taught, I'm sure you guys in in school was it's con it's conservation at the end of the day. Let's reduce first. Um, and people weren't going back to that, and that's what we're hoping to tackle here.

Matt Wampler: 13:10

Just needed somebody like you to stand up and say, we're gonna go do it.

Marc Bernstein: 13:14

So actually, I'd like to back up just for a second. So we so we talked about the need for it and the fact that it's you know, it's not, you know, that you're you're approaching a little differently, but how did you go from your entrepreneurial instincts to choosing this as your business?

Nick Martin: 13:35

It was um the I I I guess you could say right right place, right timing, right co-founder. Um, I knew from previous experience and conversations I didn't want to do something by myself because it gets very lonely as a solo founder. Matter, I don't know. Are you solo?

Matt Wampler: 13:51

I have a co-founder and I I couldn't imagine a world if I didn't.

Nick Martin: 13:55

Yeah, it's the way I it's especially when you know one of one of us is having a low, the other's having a high, and we balance each other out. It's nobody really else gets what you're going through unless it's another founder. Your team doesn't, your family doesn't, your investors don't, if they haven't been founders.

Marc Bernstein: 14:11

So uh by the way, you've met at least one of my partners, I know, and I I so in the financial services business, I'd always done it myself, and it was hard. And this time I came in with three partners, and it's a humongous difference. So I'm with you on that.

Nick Martin: 14:27

Yeah, and in my case too, I I was I knew I wanted to do something in the clean energy climate space. Um, but it wasn't until I met Joe, uh my co-founder in 2019. She was getting a uh a PhD in material science and engineering at the University of Delaware. So we have that connection. Um and go blue hens. What's that?

Marc Bernstein: 14:49

Go blinds and blue hens.

Nick Martin: 14:51

Yeah, one of two female mascots in the country. I think that's the uh I think I don't know if we're I think when I was in school was the only one, I think.

Marc Bernstein: 15:00

But maybe but anyway.

Nick Martin: 15:03

Um her and I started talking at this event that we happened to both be at and um shared a lot of the same values of um one, how can we solve big problems, especially climate, uh, with unique solutions that use existing infrastructure, um, actually democratize access to the technology? Because, you know, back to the AI conversation too. How do we make sure AI gets in the hands of everybody at the same rate? So it's not just the Fortune 500s, but how do small businesses get access to it? How do disadvantaged communities get access to it? Same thing with climate solutions. You know, climate climate disproportionately affects third world countries, um, underserved communities. How can we create a technology that will improve their indoor air quality as much as it'll improve um, you know, one liberty in center city?

Marc Bernstein: 15:54

Gotcha. Um actually, this is a really good time for us to take a break. Um, it's a good jumping off point. So let's take a quick commercial break and we'll be right back on Founders Forum with Nick Martin.

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Marc Bernstein: 17:00

We're back on Founders Forum with Matt Wampler and our guest today, Nick Martin. And Nick, um, so you and Joe Norris, who's your co-founder, got together, and from then on it was easy, right? That's another way I always ask this question, but always in different ways. But I I I love that you had a laugh over that. So tell us about some of the challenges you had along the way.

Nick Martin: 17:28

I think for what I would call deep tech companies that is uh rooted in some sort of you know science or or engineering you want to develop, you have the choice of do I stay with a university which can provide me with a lot of resources and funding, or take it out on my own. And it really comes down to you, you know, it's a decision you make. For us, we wanted more control over our IP and our future and and all that. Um, but with it comes more challenges because then you have to raise your own capital and um you immediately get launched into I need to either find grants or investors very quickly. Uh and that's that's you know the the initial challenge. I think it's paid off now looking five and a half years back, um uh that we made the the right call. But uh from there, yeah, it was it was really understanding product, uh not product market fit, excuse me, um, who the who a what the tech is, where it would fit in the market, and then who the customer is. And we started with first just the chemistry, our roots of let's create the best carbon dioxide filter we can. And then where does it best fit as an application? And like we talked about before the break, um, an HVAC system, specifically commercial buildings, who's the customer? Um, it's either the building owner themselves or it's these channel partners that are already selling energy efficiency or clean tech to the built environment. Um, so after a lot of that research, and I say that in one breath, but it took two, three years to really, really hone that down, um it made sense that there was a clear market for this.

Marc Bernstein: 19:03

What um what strengths have you developed uh you know as a company as a result of the challenges of raising money? And uh as an as an example, I would imagine if you need to raise money again, I don't know if you're going to do another raise, but if you are, you've got that under your belt, do you feel a lot more confident going outward? And what other kind of strengths came as a result of some of those challenges that you had?

Nick Martin: 19:27

Yeah, the the two things that come to mind uh about the raise first, but I think it relates to anything, uh, is this idea of to become an expert in something. What is it, 10,000 hours of of the practice and this idea of repetition? Um, we've probably had, I don't know, at least 300 unique conversations with VCs over the last four years. Um, and I feel like we have a really good idea of what VCs now venture capitalists, what they want to see, what investors want to see in us, um, how they think getting inside their heads and understanding the fundraising process. Um, so much so that the least Joe and I can do now is also um talk to younger companies in the area who are thinking about going the same route and giving them some feedback and making introductions because warm introductions in this industry are huge. I think the other part though is understanding of the signal to noise ratio. And I say that because I was just listening uh to an interview last night of um the you know the best founders and managing that signal to noise. And especially in the early stage, everybody, especially if you're a first-time founder and you're a younger founder, everybody's gonna have an opinion about what you're doing, how you're doing it, what team you're building. Um and I think Joe and I have become really good about understanding what is noise and what is signal, uh, and and allowing us to stay focused.

Marc Bernstein: 20:46

That's great. Um as we look out, um, we you know, we talk about future visions. You elected to talk about your 10-year vision. So if this is the year, you know, 2035 and we're talking, uh, what would have to happen, Nick, over that 10-year period for you, um, business-wise, and you could personal wise too, if you want to address that, for you to feel that that was the successful 10 years that you wanted to have.

Nick Martin: 21:11

Yeah. Well, if I go to immediate business, um, we are venture-backed and investors want returns and have timelines for that. So it would be um getting to a point well within that 10 years where we can um meaningfully um pay back investors and what route that takes, it's still part of our growth and our conversations. But um within the business side, um, it's also having a broader impact. We can have as much of an impact on carbon reduction and climate in the US, but if we're not tackling this globally, it's not like air moves across borders. Right. So even if we if we can't catch it here, it's gonna go to China, it's gonna go to India, Europe. Um, how can we create solutions and technology that really Impact the broader scale. And then on a personal side, for me, you know, my my career is really um looking at solutions at the intersection of emerging technology and social impact and equity. And how do I, whether it's I've done work in healthcare, clean tech, um work in STEM education, um, I see myself doing that. And eventually I'd like to also get into the the investing side and actually paying it forward and really um meaningfully contributing to solutions that I see um could have an impact as well.

Matt Wampler: 22:33

Hey, Nick, I wanted to go back to the sustainability and how you thread that needle because it sounds like you're actually uh creating a business case for why somebody should bring this into their building, right? It's more efficient, you know, it's gonna be a healthier workplace. There's a lot of you know, value prop for an owner of a building, right? And then there's also the sustainability side of things. How do you thread that needle?

Nick Martin: 22:58

So we I guess the the uh unofficial way I say it is you don't have to care about climate, let us care about climate. Um, we're finding a lot of customers still do, and in their different ways. But what we wanted to figure out, especially in the carbon removal space, is nobody is just buying carbon removal for the sake of it. Um, so how do we create value beyond that? And for us, by removing CO2 specifically inside of building HVAC, we can reduce the amount of new area, heating and cooling to be brought into the building. Um, and that's the massive energy unlock that you can't get from anything else aside from CO2 capture. So energy savings first, we remove CO2 and other contaminants from the air. So, you know, uh volatile organic compounds, viruses, bacteria, particulates. So it's an indoor air quality play. And building owners and managers want people to come back into their spaces, renew leases post-COVID. Um, so that's the man, that's a motivating factor is people want to feel safe in the space. Oh, and if you have stakeholders, shareholders that care about climate, or you have to report to the SEC quarterly on your scope one, two goals, we have the climate solution for you too, but it's not the main driver always.

Matt Wampler: 24:12

Yeah, we we uh reduce food waste in restaurants. Uh the average restaurant we work with reduces one metric ton of carbon every month at each location. Uh-huh. And you know, it's it's funny. Like we have to kind of bury that because the moment we bring up sustainability, everyone thinks this is going to cost me money, not save me money. But I'm talking with you, I understand like, no, no, this is something that saves you money in the building, and it also has this byproduct.

Nick Martin: 24:39

Yep. Yeah, I I think I think um whether we're talking about carbon capture, uh, waste, solar, wind, um, if you really dig into it, the economics are pretty favorable right now. Now is the best time to be doing that. And um, the other thing for us is we wanted to scale this without ever needing um in government incentives to make it um attractive. So even if all government incentives went away, we still have a uh attractive payback period for our customers.

Matt Wampler: 25:09

Last question I got for you.

Marc Bernstein: 25:10

Which they are going away to a certain extent, it looks like, right? Yeah, that's another conversation. I know, I know it is.

Matt Wampler: 25:17

You guys are a venture-backed business in the hardware space. And I understand you guys are manufacturing in America. That's almost unheard of. That's really difficult. How did you manage that?

Nick Martin: 25:31

Good question. Um, your first part about venture-backed hardware. So typically you think venture-backed software because that typically has you know recurring revenue, um, you know, hockey puck, what do they call it? Hockey stick growth trajectories. Um, there's a lot of capital out there. They call it patient capital, catalytic capital that is really um for these uh early stage hardware that you need to actually build stuff to prove it out uh before you can deploy it. Um, so we've been very fortunate to find really supportive investors um in that space. Um your second question was related to Manufacturing in America.

Matt Wampler: 26:10

Not only are you doing hardware, but you're making it here.

Nick Martin: 26:13

Yeah, I would say any for any hardware um adjacent or specific founder listening out there, it's a it's not as difficult as maybe you might think. Um, and it is a huge selling point for customers. Um, and there are organizations out there like uh manufacturing, uh, what do they call manufacturing extensionship extension partners, which are designed to convene local manufacturers in a geography and connect them with new business.

Marc Bernstein: 26:43

So the networks I'll just mention to you, I've done a lot of work with manufacturers, the DVIRC, for instance, in Philadelphia. Yes, Delaware Valley Industrial Resource Council is one of those extension partnerships. Yep. Yep.

Nick Martin: 26:56

And we have uh we've already started um manufacturing um parts of our builds right here in Pennsylvania. So uh it's it's able, I think with anything in the startup space, if you're intentional about it from the onset, you can make it happen. Um maybe it's not the conventionally easiest way, but there are ramifications for immediately going overseas that people don't take into account either. Um, and if you're just focused on price always, I don't think that's the best way to build a business.

Marc Bernstein: 27:26

Uh, we only have a minute left. I have two very quick questions for you. One is goes back to Matt's original, he's looking out the window again at all the air conditioning units as we're talking. So you've you've made your case very well for your value proposition. Obviously, one thing in the way would be the initial outlay by the company, and I'm sure you have answers to that. But why why why are why does why isn't everyone doing this? What's standing in your way?

Nick Martin: 27:55

The the immediate thing is it's a it is a relatively um undervalued impact that people realize CO2 can have on reducing um energy costs. Um our unit does take up space. Um, we're not talking hundreds of square feet of it, but square faces, uh, square space is a premium, especially in urban environments, and we're trying to educate the customer around um where we can fit it. We're very flexible and where our technology fits in. Um but I also think it's just getting the word out. So any chance we have like opportunities like these to talk about it at professional conferences, having lunch and learns with um engineering firms and building owners, um, we're we're out there talking about as much as we can.

Marc Bernstein: 28:42

Sounds like it comes comes down to education, period. Um last question. You you mentioned this is one of the questions you like to be asked, and it's unusual for someone your age in your 20s, but what thoughts do you have about your legacy? Because I know you think about that.

Nick Martin: 28:57

Yeah, I think for me, it's it's not so much a selfish thing like remembering the name Nick Martin, but having impact that um is seen through other people's actions in future generations, whether it's um, you know, my my future family or uh employees or companies that had an impact and that are generational companies, because that's really what I'm trying here to do here is build wealth, not just build an exit company in less than 10 years. Um that's that's legacy for me, is I don't need it to be my name, but I want to see, you know, how I ran business and how I impacted people reflected in future generations.

Marc Bernstein: 29:41

Well, this was a great conversation. I appreciate you saying that, but we are out of time. And we thank you all for being with us on Founders Forum today. Thank you, Nick Martin, for being here. Thank you, Matt Wampler, for being here again. Uh cheers out to Carbon Reform and to Clear Cogs, and we'll see you again next week on Founders Forum.