Show Opening And Setup

Announcer 0:01

Entrepreneur, founder, author and financial advisor, Marc Bernstein helps high-performing business owners turn their visions into reality. At March Forward, Marc and his partners and associates think out of the box to partner with their clients in regards to their visions for their lives, their businesses and their legacies. And through his innovative work with the Forward Focus Forums, Marc connects entrepreneurs to resources that help to fuel their success. Founders’ Forum is a radio show and podcast where entrepreneurs share their journeys, revealing the stories behind their successes, and the lessons they’ve learned. Join Marc and his guests for a mix of inspiration, valuable insights, and a bit of fun! Now, let’s dive in...

Defining Innovation With A Real Town

Marc Bernstein 0:45

Good morning, America. How are you? This is Marc Bernstein, and you're listening to Founders Forum. And I have what I consider to be a very special guest today. And his name is Syd, and I'll formally introduce him in a minute. But uh we always start right with the topic of the day. And we're in, I should mention, we're in Babcock Ranch, Florida, on another beautiful, uh perfect day down here. And Syd, when I when I say the word innovation, what comes to mind?

Syd Kitson 1:13

Well, at Babcock Ranch, we set out to be the most sustainable, the most innovative, uh, and the most resilient community that's that's ever been developed. So when I think about innovation, I think about all the opportunities we have to really be leaders and to change the way people think uh about uh about a new town, if you will. And as an example, Babcock Ranch is the first solar-powered town in America. It took a long time, uh, but I don't think there's a whole lot more innovative uh than that. Um and I would say the other thing that comes to mind is if you want to truly be innovative, it's really hard. Right. And if you're not willing to have some thick skin, if you're not willing to be passionate and to truly believe in what you're doing, then innovation will never happen. And and I've always said it's it's sort of that, you know, that intersection between dreaming and doing that can change the world. And that's and that's why, you know, and how innovation can really lead.

Marc Bernstein 2:15

You couldn't have you I couldn't, first of all, I teed you up pretty well. You're a golfer, I know, so I think that I tee you up pretty well. So, and you did a great job introducing really what this show is about, because it's about innovation, it's about the challenges of entrepreneurs. I I know you I know it's a smooth ride for you all the way through, right? It's been piece of cake. Piece of cake, right? So so that so we teed that up per per uh perfectly. So let's talk about it.

From The NFL To Development

Marc Bernstein 2:41

So Syd Kitson is chairman and chief executive officer of Kitson and Partners, a Florida-based real estate development firm which is recognized for its commitment to responsible growth and innovative community planning, as he already alluded to. He's a graduate of Wake Forest University with a degree in economics. And Syd had a notable career in the National Football League. I want to actually talk to you about that a little bit, as an offensive guard of uh for the Green Bay Packers and the Dallas Cowboys. I'm an Eagles fan, so I'm I uh so I what can I say? After retiring from the NFL, he transitioned into real estate and founded Kitson and Partners in 1999. Syd is best known for leading the creation of Babcock Ranch, the nation's first fully solar-powered, climate-resilient new town. And Babcock Ranch has earned, as I tell people on the radio show all the time, the the uh national distinction and uh including recognition by Money Magazine as one of the 50 best places to live in the United States. Beyond his development work, Syd has served in key leadership roles across major civic and business organizations. He's been chair of the Florida Chamber of Commerce, the Florida Council of 100, and the Board of Governors of the State University of Florida. His leadership has been honored with multiple awards, including, I think this is the best one, Time Magazine's Dreamer of the Year, since we're talking about dreaming, the flower, the Florida Council of One Hundredths, um of one hundredths, the Governor's Business Leader Award, Builder Magazine's Legends Award, and Wake Forest University's Distinguished Alumni Award. That's a lot of great honors.

Syd Kitson 4:21

Well, a lot of people helped us uh helped along the way. So thank you. Great to be here too, Marc. Thank you for having me.

Marc Bernstein 4:27

Oh my pleasure. Um, by the way, the dreamer thing, I just have to mention, my I I had all kinds of dreams as a kid. I still do. I'm always dreaming, I'm always the show's all about moving forward, and that's what my business is about. And my father used to say, ah, you're a dreamer, and he didn't mean it as a compliment. And but after many years of like working on personal development, growth, and um, you know, and um goal setting things and all kinds of work that I've done, I realized that what he really meant to say, I would hope, was that dreams without action don't really work, which is true.

Syd Kitson 5:02

And I think you're f and if that's what he meant, he's right. Right. I know a lot of people have really good ideas um and they dream big, but they just don't want to take it to that to that next level where they actually do something to make it uh a reality. And it takes a certain kind of person to be able to step up and and do that kind of thing.

Marc Bernstein 5:22

But uh as you said it, you didn't you didn't say it this way, but hard-headedness almost. Like if you've if you've got a dream and you're innovating, you gotta you gotta be totally determined, totally focused.

Syd Kitson 5:32

A lot of people will tell you why it's not gonna work. Right. Um, but if you believe in it and it's you know it's a sound idea and it can make sense, you just you have to have that fortitude, that burning I always you have to have that burning desire to be able to do it. It's kind of like when I was uh when I was playing football, uh the coaches used to say that if you don't have that burning desire in your stomach to be successful, you just you you're not gonna be able to uh to get to that

Childhood Roots Of A True Hometown

Syd Kitson 5:58

level.

Marc Bernstein 5:58

So I was gonna well let's start. I'm gonna go back to football just for a second, but let's start with your humble beginnings. I don't know, I don't know if they were humble or not, but in New Jersey. And I think there was something about your childhood that inspired you towards this dream.

Syd Kitson 6:12

Well, I grew up in a small town in New Jersey. We did not uh have a lot of money, uh, but I had a great family. I was very, very fortunate, great parents, uh, two wonderful sisters. So we we had a great family. We we didn't have a lot of money, but we didn't know. I grew up in this really uh wonderful town uh called New Providence, about 12,000 people uh in that and it was almost designed well by by accident. You know, it had the the the downtown and the high school, the school. Like a town square kind of was was well it was right in the middle of town. Okay, okay. And so what happened, we didn't have busing or anything. You walked to school, and it had the elementary schools, you know, uh around the town also. But there was some something, you know, really wonderful about that to be able to walk, ride your bike to wherever you wanted to go. So uh you hopefully you'll be able to relate to this. I'm a lot older than you, but when I was a kid.

Marc Bernstein 7:06

Thank you for saying that. I don't think you're right about that, by the way. But that's not true.

Syd Kitson 7:09

When I was a kid, my mother would kick us out of the house in the morning and just say, be home for dinner. And so there were no phones, no computers, no, nothing. And we had a great time just exploring and being part of the outdoors. And I think this generation has sort of lost that, that feeling of independence that we had when we were kids. You know, parents are, you know, they're they want to know where everybody is every second of the day. Uh, and when they're not doing that, a lot of times they're they're on the computers or they're, you know, this social media and all that stuff that I think can be very harmful. You know, the greatest show on earth is right outside your door. Right. And I think that's what we've really tried to do here at Babcock Ranch. But growing up, that's we we had a great group of friends. To this day, the the people I grew up with are still, I'm still very, very close to talk to on a regular basis. And that's what a true hometown can can bring. And so it was very inspirational to me throughout my life.

Marc Bernstein 8:05

So I grew up in Plymouth Meeting, Pennsylvania. You may have heard of because of malls and things like that. But when I grew up there, with there was one farm that they turned into a development, and that was our our neighborhood, and we had an old school building that was from 1900, and everybody would go to the schoolyard. That's what we did. And I know this is part of your story, parents send you off, say, go play, see at dinner time. And that's the way I grew up as well. So I just need to tell you from a personal point of view, I mentioned to you that we were looking at other parts of Florida, the East Coast, the West Coast, and everything like that. And it just seemed to us all these kind of no offense because we're one of them, but like old people, you know, clustered together. And when we came here and tried this and we saw that there's kids around, that there's playgrounds, that there's a school, that that inspired us because that's that's where we want, we want to live in a town. We didn't want to.

Syd Kitson 8:55

It's great to hear you say that because that's exactly what we wanted to create here is a multi-generational community. The only way we could do that was to have a school. We started with a school. I heard that because otherwise, if you don't, you're gonna default in Florida to an empty nest or you know, a senior type community. We wanted this to be a true hometown. And you can see that if you go to Food Truck Fridays here at Babcock. We have a lot of events. We go all the time. If if if you're bored here at Babcock, it's because you just don't want to do anything. Right. There are so many things to do. But what's so nice about it is when you go to these uh events, if you will, and you just step back and look, what you'll see is the grandparents, the kids, and the grandkids. Right. And usually the grandkids are running around all over the place, and the parents are just it it you can just see the families coming together, and there and here at Babcock you'll see multi-generational families all throughout this community. But we didn't want to just be a place for empty nesters, and having uh a true hometown uh needs to have that multi-generational uh by the way, I live in a golf community, so it's trends a little older.

Marc Bernstein 10:00

You have over 55 here if people want that, but there's plenty of places to interact with families and kids and where I I don't have grandchildren yet, but I can't wait to bring my grandchildren here.

Syd Kitson 10:11

So we do have an age-restricted uh community here, 55, and we have one at this point. There there may be another one in in the future, but they are part of something even bigger. So they they may have that, but they can right across the street from that community or all the parks. So, as you said, I'm a grandparent. I have six grandkids, and the big issue here when they come to Babcock, which they do very frequently, is what park to go to. And that's that's a topic of discussion, and they finally end up going to all of them, and uh which is which is a long day because there's a lot of parks here.

Marc Bernstein 10:41

By the way, I only frequent frequent the bark park at this point. That's why that's my I bring Arlo there. I talk about Arlo on my show too. So that's great. My dog

Designing A Multi-Generational Community

Marc Bernstein 10:50

is Arlo. So uh let me let me say this. So we talked about your childhood, how it influenced you. Let's talk about how football influenced you today. You mentioned it a little bit, but I have a feeling that that determination and that grit that you had to do this, and I'm gonna ask you about some of that, but I have a feeling that the the time you spent in football might have helped with that.

Syd Kitson 11:09

Oh, there's there's no question. I was very fortunate to have great high school coaches. Uh when I went to Wake Forest, um you know, we had a coaching change in the middle of it, and a coach by the name of John Makavic came in my junior and senior year. And uh he beat us up really good. And out of a, and I mean that in an affectionate way, I mean he he beat us up. And out of 30 uh members of my my class, only eight of us were left. Everyone else quit. So that work ethic, what what he did to us, he wanted to find out who truly wanted to be there, who wanted to, who wanted to win, who was willing to sacrifice to be successful. And it taught me a lot because we had two one in ten seasons in a row. And then my senior year, uh we ended up in the top 20. It was one of the biggest turns at the time, one of the biggest turnarounds. Uh we went to a bowl game, and uh that was unthinkable just just a year before, but it really proved uh how you can um if you if you have that fortitude, if you have that desire, that passion, that discipline, you can make things uh work. Definitely took that uh into the NFL, but more importantly, into the business world. I always tell these these former athletes, gosh, use what you learned and and and find out what you like, find out what you enjoy. For me, my passion is is building uh master plan communities, building new towns. I love what I do. I don't I truly, I get up every morning, I know if I'm just I'm just telling you how I feel. I love what I do. I I don't think I've worked a day in my life. That's wonderful. And that those challenges and everything else, it's just problem solving. I

Discipline And The Blank Sheet Mindset

Syd Kitson 12:53

love problem solving, I love the challenges, and and it's it's an everyday thing. And it so you don't get bored at all. But think about this um the opportunity that I've had um to be able to come in with a blank sheet of paper and build a new town. There'll be 22,000 homes, six million square feet of commercial space, and to have people trust and believe in what you're doing, from my financial partners to the people who work for the organization to come together and to create something that nobody's ever done before. We always say we want to be leaders and not followers at at Babcock Ranch. So the things we do here are very different than than other places. And it's just it's a wonderful, wonderful feeling to know that uh that you have that trust. But we're one of what, a handful of people around the entire globe to be able to say we can build a new town coming out of the ground uh from scratch. And that's just it's a very unique opportunity. I'm very fortunate and very blessed to have been able to do it.

Marc Bernstein 13:52

It's an amazing story, and I've tried to follow very closely because I find it fascinating. It's really, by the way, I also I don't know if you know Lancaster, Pennsylvania, but I did a series there too. Yeah, I grew up near there, I had no idea what's going on there. There's all kinds of entrepreneurialism, and we've talked about that. And I mentioned often that both Lancaster PA and Babcock Ranch are listed amongst the top 25. Top 25 in America is a pretty amazing thing to be. It really is, it really is. So quite an achievement. Um, so we so we covered the football connection. Let's talk about the challenges because you had this vision, I think, probably 25 years ago. Yeah, right? So so how to tell me the about some of the obstacles

Obstacles And Earning Public Trust

Marc Bernstein 14:34

in the way. There were just so many.

Syd Kitson 14:36

We're actually we're actually writing a book on it, but it just starts with okay, we're gonna build a new town. And you know, when you're Charlotte County and you look at somebody coming in, and in South Florida, there's been a lot of developers who've come in and really not done the right thing when you when you think about that. And uh and so we came in and said we want to build a uh a new town, and uh and but they didn't have a little box that checked to say, you know, here here's how you do it. We had to really start from the beginning with all the ordinances and everything that we needed to do. And um, so that was challenge one, and then getting people to actually believe that what we said we were going to do, that's that's a biggest challenge. There's such a distrust for uh for so many years with developers. And then, you know, we we bought 91,000 acres and then sold 73,000 acres to the state of Florida, the largest land purchase in the history of the state. That normally takes seven years, five to seven years. We did it in one year.

Marc Bernstein 15:34

I've heard that story. That's unbelievable.

Syd Kitson 15:36

So when you you kind of pull all that together, there were so many obstacles to create the first solar power town. I didn't realize there were gonna be a whole lot of people who didn't want me to do that. I didn't understand that. So it was a very uh challenging time, but a journey that I I will tell you I really enjoyed.

Sponsor Break

Marc Bernstein 15:52

Well, that's it's an amazing story, and this is a great time for a quick break, and we'll be right back on Founders Forum.

Announcer 15:57

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Hiring Great People And Telling Truth

Marc Bernstein 16:50

So we just talked about tons of challenges that you had, and we also talked about strengths that you brought to the table from football. But I'm I imagine you developed some other strengths through this process. Um and could you share with our listeners, because our listeners are primarily entrepreneurs, the strengths that you've that you've because you'll also need these for your future vision, I know, and we're gonna talk about that a little bit. So what kind of strengths do you see as maybe you and your company, obviously, there's a lot of people along with you to to meet these challenges?

Syd Kitson 17:23

I think bringing people on board, hiring people that are smarter than you is probably really one of the more important parts of it. Look, we have a really good team, and I and I think that I've had people uh people who work for us right now been with me for 30 years. Um and uh so you know, really having the right people who believe in in what you're doing. When we talk about wanting to create a place that works in harmony with nature, to work with nature, to do what's right by the environment, I I mean it. And we talk about all our core values, you know, our core initiatives, and we talk about how we treat the environment, our energy source, education, which I'd love to talk about, which we are very, very passionate about, and I talk about transportation and technology, health and wellness and storm safety. And so when people come into organization, they need to know that we these aren't words, right? We believe in it and we're passionate about every single one of those. And we dug deep into every one of them. We spent years and years and years on each and every one of those key initiatives. So when they come in here, they're a part of something special. And and if and if they don't believe that, they're not with us very long. And so it's it's it's truly understanding what the mission is and understanding that each and every one of them can be a part of it. There are some great ideas that we get from, particularly from some of the younger people coming into the organization. They're they're full of these fresh ideas, and uh so many of them are are absolutely fantastic, and we've implemented quite a few of them. So that that culture of uh being incredibly transparent. I think people had to get used to that when we first came in, you know, and started talking about Babcock Ranch, is we would just tell 100% the truth. Everyone on an organization, and and everyone knows this, there's a rule, and that is you can only tell the truth. Anything else, and you it's cost of determination. I don't care who you're talking to, I don't care if it's homeowners, I don't care if it's it's our partners or any with each other, you have to tell the truth. That's the only that's the only reality that that we have.

Marc Bernstein 19:35

So that's your culture. I was going to ask you about that. 100%. That's such a great culture.

Syd Kitson 19:40

You by the way, you it's it's amazing how people love to spin things. Yeah. And spinning doesn't and and so you when you see the rumors or you hear you know some of the people. I'm not I'm not on social media, so I don't see any of it, and I I have I have no time for it, and I and it's a bunch of nonsense. Right. But one thing that I always tell everybody is just be patient. Just be patient, because the truth always comes out one way or the other. Right. So I I'd love to tell the story about how when we first uh when I first started talking about how Publix was going to come into Babcock Ranch. And and a couple people on social media, again, I was told because I'm not on social media, but somebody came out and said, there's no way Publix is coming. I know Publix, I work with Publix, and they are not coming to Babcock Ranch. Three days later, we announced that we signed a lease for Publix coming into Babcock Ranch. My point is that you you know, just if you continue to do the right thing, you continue to be transparent and tell the truth, over time, people start to look at the rumors and all the stuff that's out there, and they'll go, well, let's, I don't know. I don't know if that's true or not. They'll start to doubt those people, you know, who just love to get behind a keyboard and and uh and say things that just quite frankly uh are aren't true. On the other hand, you know, look, that's a small, small group of people. Right. And I think we all need to realize that just most people are awesome. Right. I mean, look at look at this community, look at the neighbors, look at how people treat each other. It's wonderful. So we get tied up in this little segment of people who seem to dominate the headlines, they they dominate social media, and guess what? That's not the way most people feel. And I believe in that from the bottom of my heart. So, you know, again, from a culture perspective with an organization, we preach it and we talk about it every single time we get together, and we get together quite a bit as an organization.

Marc Bernstein 21:30

That's right. I'm gonna make sure this podcast gets all over all those social media sites so they can hear this, because I I couldn't agree with you more, and I'm so glad to hear you say that. Um, so you've you've built up a great culture. By the way, I just want to mention one real quick story. I don't want to spend a lot of time on it because we already had her on the show. But Amy Wicks is one of your longest term employees. Also, I should mention Lisa Hall, and I know she doesn't want to be any attention to her, but she's here today, and I know she's one of your very early ones as well, who who is how we met. She's awesome. She's both She's awesome, right? She's you should hear her sing too. Have you heard Lisa sing?

Syd Kitson 22:03

I have not. Lisa, we're we're gonna have to we're gonna have to we go to open mic night together.

Marc Bernstein 22:07

Oh, there you go. So anyway, that's that's all so. But Amy told me, she told me the story about like so the reason I'm here is because of Amy Wicks. Because my wife, when we were looking to find somewhere else in Southwest Florida, saw the 60 Minute Show where she was interviewed. I think you were interviewed as well. And she um she said, we ought to check this place out. So I went on the website and it said hometown for tomorrow. And I'm like, this is right up my alley because everything I do is about forward-looking and innovation. I'm on the board of a university that's all about it's a long story, but I'm it's it's all what I'm about. And by the way, you have a very young spirit, and and that's I think people that are innovative and always thinking to the future, it's what keeps you young. And that's one of the reasons I love it, because I feel it's doing the same for me. Um, but Amy said that you called her over like a couple days after you did that video of the water coming up in Lake Babcock and all that, and and you said, Amy, what do we do here? Do you remember this conversation? And I think she said, correct me if I'm wrong, we said something like

Stormwater Planning And Hurricane Resilience

Marc Bernstein 23:10

if we knew what we were doing, this never would have happened. Um you know, in a good way. Like in other words, because because we didn't have any idea, we started with a blank slate and we had to figure it out. And to me, that's like the perfect um picture of what you're talking about with innovation, you know.

Syd Kitson 23:26

If you know, we looked at it very differently. Uh the one thing that uh that we did early on, um, and I'm not sure if Amy was uh she she she might have been on board, I'm not, I'm not sure, but in the very, very beginning, um I talked to quite a few uh biologists, hydrologists, and really wanted to get into the science of what we were trying to do at Babcock, and whether it be rehydrating wetlands or or whatever. But the first thing I wanted to do was to make sure the land plan was right. And and I said to everybody, what's the best way for us to go about planning this? And what we stepped back and said, we need to identify those areas um that you know where those constraints are and those areas that we need to stay out of. So we had to find the natural flowways to where the water actually goes.

Marc Bernstein 24:14

And that was for sustainability reasons originally. It's all about sustainability, not about storm resistance at first.

Syd Kitson 24:20

Well, no, it was also I mean, no, storm resistance was something we worked on from way the beginning of the beginning. Ah, okay. You have to do you have to think about that from the beginning, or you're not gonna get it right.

Marc Bernstein 24:33

By the way, I want to mention that because we didn't totally talk about first solar power, we talked about sustainability, but so our listeners know this is probably the most hurricane-resilient community in America, I would say.

Syd Kitson 24:42

Very, very purposeful, uh, and Lisa will will tell you this. So we found where those natural flowways were. And what happens on a ranch like Baccock, 91,000 acres, 143 square miles. Right. That's an area five times the size of the island of Manhattan. But they they create, they build, they dig canals, they drain it. But even with all that, the water's gonna go where it wants to go. Mother Nature is gonna say, that's where I'm putting the water during an extreme storm. I don't care where the creeks are or where anything is. So we found where those natural flowways were and we just stayed out of them. That was another thing I got a lot of criticism, along with a hundred other things. You can't do that. That's land you should be developing, you should put homes there. That's exactly the wrong thing to do. You've got to keep these homes and buildings and structures out of harm's way. So we identified, and it so today when you see where Curry Canal is and all those great walking paths or uh that that go through uh these beautifully wooded areas.

Marc Bernstein 25:36

I was walking right by there this morning.

Syd Kitson 25:38

Yeah, and those are the flowways. We just stayed out of them, and you can see our whole stormwater system is connected to that as is the entire lake system. We also have a smart stormwater system that uh Amy and our group put together where we can move water around the community and drain it so that we can anticipate, you know, when when these storms are coming. Now, let's be clear nothing is perfect. Right. With during Hurricane Inn, we never lost power. And we're very proud of that. And that was very proactive. Everything is underground, but we did a lot more than that. We hardened, we own the storm water print, we hardened that. Um, we worked with Florida Power Light for years to give us a redundant system that allows it to almost self-heal if there's a problem. And then they they took all the power that comes into Babcock Ranch and they hardened that. So all these things that that we did have created, you know, this this uh resilient uh community, but it was very purposeful. We're able to do it right from the beginning. If you don't do it right from the beginning, you're always gonna have a problem.

Marc Bernstein 26:39

This is the whole thing is remarkable to me. By the way, when walking the water because it's very dry right now, it's very low, but you can see how much capacity there is that isn't being used right now, which is which was part of the design, which I totally get.

Syd Kitson 26:51

And those are part of the extremes of Florida. You get right now we're we're in a drought condition. That'll change. That'll change, right?

Marc Bernstein 26:58

We we know that'll change, right? Right. So listen, this has been so great. We only have about a minute and a half left, believe it or not. Time flies when we're having so much fun. But um, I got a couple quick

The 10-Year Vision And Closing

Marc Bernstein 27:10

questions for you. Well, first of all, this is we're we're so people know when this is actually being recorded. It's in March of 2026. So if we're in March of 2036, and hopefully I'll have the opportunity to talk to you again then, it's 10 years from now. What would have had to happen in your vision of your life? And I know a lot of that has to do with Babcock ranch and the things you're working on, for you to feel that that was a successful 10-year period.

Syd Kitson 27:35

Well, it's it's always a journey. Uh, and that might be the athlete in me, but uh you know, you're never there in my mind. It's it's always we're we're striving to to be uh there is no destiny as good as it can possibly be great, not to be good, but to be great. But it you know, I reflect back, um, I truly want to make people's lives better and have an impact on the world, not just not just this community, but if in fact I can I see and it's happening right now, which is wonderful, I get calls from all over the world, actually, and throughout the United States. But if they take our game plan and what we've done here at at Babcock Ranch, and I hope they take that and actually improve on it. And if if that if I see that 10 years from now, communities coming up, and I and there are probably three or four right now that I know they're coming out of the ground that took all the data and all the work that we did, and if they do that and they just take it one more level, you know, improve on the things that we're doing, then I'll know that we're really onto something special.

Marc Bernstein 28:35

Well, if everybody thought like you imagine what an amazing world is an amazing place, but it'd be so much more amazing. It's really great. Uh, I know you're a reader. What type of books do you like to read?

Syd Kitson 28:45

I I love uh reading uh biographies. I just I'm a I'm almost obsessed with learning about you know, whether it be, you know, Steve Jobs or you know, Elon Musk or you know, Benjamin Franklin, or uh I've I mean I've read so many of them, uh Phil Knight. It goes on and I get lost in these books and I love learning about the journey that everybody has. Everybody has a story. You have a story, everybody has a story, and I just I love hearing it and learning from it.

Marc Bernstein 29:15

I'm right there with you. That's why I do this show. Yeah, I love I loved hearing your story today. Thanks so much for being here. Thank you for having me. Thank you all for listening. Thank you, Lisa, for putting this together, and thank you, Steve, for engineering. And all of you have a great week and uh enjoy enjoy your life, whatever you're doing.

Announcer 29:35

Founders’ Forum was brought to you in part, by March Forward, LLC. We partner with entrepreneurs like you to assist in accomplishing your future vision. Your life. Your business. Your legacy. Comprehensive wealth planning that starts with you -- not a product. We hope you enjoyed your time with Founders’ Forum and that you found something of value to take with you throughout your day. Join us again next week for another episode of Founders’ Forum on WWDB 860 AM Philadelphia, or on your favorite podcast streaming service. Securities offered through DFPG Investments, LLC (“DFPG”) Investment Advisory Services offered through Diversify Advisory Services, LLC (“Diversify”). DAS and DFPG are affiliated entities. March is unaffiliated with DAS and DFPG. Member FINRA/SIPC The information provided in this podcast is for informational and educational purposes only and should not be interpreted as investment advice. The views expressed are those of the host and guests and do not necessarily reflect the views of Diversify or DFPG.