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Announcer 0:00

The following programming is sponsored by Marc J. Bernstein. The views expressed do not necessarily reflect the views of this station, its management, or Beasly Media Group. Entrepreneur, founder, author and financial advisor, Marc Bernstein helps high-performing business owners turn their visions into reality. At March Forward, Marc and his partners and associates think out of the box to partner with their clients in regards to their visions for their lives, their businesses and their legacies. And through his innovative work with the Forward Focus Forums, Marc connects entrepreneurs to resources that help to fuel their success. Founders’ Forum is a radio show and podcast where entrepreneurs share their journeys, revealing the stories behind their successes, and the lessons they’ve learned. Join Marc and his guests for a mix of inspiration, valuable insights, and a bit of fun! Now, let’s dive in...

Marc Bernstein 0:52

Good

Creation, Intention, And Luck

Marc Bernstein 0:53

morning, America. How are you today? We are in Philadelphia. We're at WWDB Radio in Bala Cynwyd. And uh we've got some great people in the studio today. So first of all, we've got Sam and Josh on the board engineering today. We've got Mark Wagner here as co-host. He's co-founder and CEO of RM Interiors. We've got Jen Wagner in the house, and we've got Larry, and I'm going to introduce Larry formally in a minute. But guys, usually when I think of a thought of the day, it's independent of whatever the show's going to be about, and I like to see where it goes. But this one is actually kind of dependent because I know both of your stories. And I I've been thinking about, in fact, on Mark's show, we talked about that creation when it comes to business is sort of capitalizing on luck to create something sometimes if it if it comes around. And um so Mark, I want to ask you first about when you think of creation in regard to business, how that occurs to you based on your own experience. And I want to ask Larry the same question.

Mark Wagner 1:59

So creation for me is a matter of having an intention, where you want to go or what you want to do, and then getting yourself out there. I think the luck just is when you're out there, it falls in play. And it's looking to say where you're gonna go. I a lot of people will turn back and say, hey, you've been lucky. Um, but it it's I don't know if lucky is the right word, but I think creation is when creation and luck or preparedness and effort come together brings something to pass.

Marc Bernstein 2:28

So and Larry, how about you? What does that mean to you in terms of and you might want to tie it into how you created your business, although we're gonna we're gonna talk about that at some point.

Larry Hirsh, CRE, MAI, SGA 2:37

Well, I I kind of look at, you know, as far as like a thought of the day type of thing as, you know, today's the first day of the rest of your life. And I, you know, was a young real estate appraiser and had my own business and used to go to work and you'd come to a stoplight and look at people and they weren't very happy. And I said, I want to go to work looking forward to getting there every day. And, you know, I said, geez, I've got some real estate skills and I love being around golf, and golf uses a lot of real estate. Hmm, maybe I should maybe I should focus on golf courses. And that's kind of how I got into it. So it's you know, it's kind of luck, but more than anything else, it's wanting to have a good time every day.

Meet Larry Hirsch And His Niche

Marc Bernstein 3:20

I love that. So we're gonna hear about Larry's story because it's a very unique business that he has, and uh one of the few people I think that really does it. So Larry is actually Lawrence A. Hirsh, C R E M A I, not M I A, but M-A-I, S G A, is the president of Golf Property Analysts, a leading golf and club property consulting, appraisal, and brokerage firm based in Philadelphia. He and the firm have performed consulting, appraisal, and brokerage assignments on more than 3,500 golf and club properties in 47 U.S. states, Canada, and the Caribbean. I'll ask you later, but I think that's got to be more than anyone else, I gotta imagine. But who knows? He doesn't know. Uh Hirsh is an award-winning author, having written the Appraisal Institute's Text on Golf Property Valuation. So he literally wrote the book on the subject, and it's called Golf Property Analysis and Valuation: A Modern Approach, which received the Appraisal Institute's Award for Best Text in 2016. Second edition was published in 2022. Hirsh has written, Larry has written three articles on golf and club property valuation in the Appraisal Journal Journal, co-authored the Urban Land Institute's Residential Golf Community Development, and authored many articles for a variety of industry publications. His most recent publication is titled The Culture of Golf. I want to ask you about that. Isn't it just a game? So I was thinking about we talk about company cultures. It's probably more interesting to talk about the culture of your industry, which we could talk about. Hirsh has also lectured at seminars, meetings, and universities, and is on the education faculty for the PGA of America. A founder and first president of the Society of Golf Appraisers, SGA, Larry has also developed a golf course and brokered nearly $300 million in golf course and club properties. He's a graduate of the Penn State Pennsylvania State University. We are, right? Penn State. Penn State. And he's married to Judy, who I've met, who is a powerhouse in her own right, and the father of three. Larry's also a licensed commercial plot pilot, certified flight instructor, and an active competitive golfer. Still competitive?

Larry Hirsh, CRE, MAI, SGA 5:38

Nah.

Marc Bernstein 5:38

I thought you were going to say that. Anyway, yeah, he's he's down the oh, I shouldn't talk about handicaps, but he's down to a has been put it this way. He's a mid-range single-digit now.

Mark Wagner 5:49

I would I would dream to be there.

Marc Bernstein 5:51

Trevor Burrus, Jr. Yeah, meet you and me both. So uh anyway. Welcome, Larry. Good to have you here.

Larry Hirsh, CRE, MAI, SGA 5:56

Thank you. Good to be here, Marc.

Marc Bernstein 5:57

So tell

Learning Golf Courses As Real Estate

Marc Bernstein 5:58

us the story because it's a very interesting story. You started to tell it a little bit, but how did you come about to this crazy uh business that you're doing?

Larry Hirsh, CRE, MAI, SGA 6:04

Well, I like I said, I I I was looking to, you know, be in something that I enjoyed doing every day because my dad always told me if you like what you do, you never work a day in your life, and I certainly didn't want to work too much. And um and so I I decided that um golf courses use a lot of real estate, and I I wish I could say that when I did this, I I was smart enough to foresee the golf boom of the uh of the mid-90s, but I'm not that smart. And um, you know, I went out and learned the golf business. And you know, I had spent a lot of time around golf courses as a kid and growing up, you know, I learned to play when I was young because that was how I could spend time with my dad. And um uh I just decided, you know, geez, if I'm if I'm not gonna be good enough to really play at a high level, I might as well do something else in golf. And and uh, you know, given the skills that I already had, it was seemed like a good marriage. And uh, you know, um I'm 71 years old and have no designs on quitting because I look forward to going to work every day.

Marc Bernstein 7:16

What um so how how how did you go about getting into it? How'd you get started?

Larry Hirsh, CRE, MAI, SGA 7:21

Well, I I the first thing I did was I got a solid foundation in in the appraisal profession and in real estate in general, which I had had from the time I was a kid. And uh then I started going to golf conferences, golf industry conferences, development and and and other you know operations and stuff, and I went to the PJ merchandise show and I went to the superintendent show, and I just tried to learn as much as I could. And you know, next thing I know they were asking me to come and speak to them because there weren't really any appraisers that had specialized in or focused on on golf courses. And and then in the early 90s, I I met a guy in Florida by the name of Sam Hines, who was the uh national hospitality manager and regional um uh and regional manager for one of the big real estate companies, uh, you know, the big national, international real estate companies.

Founding The Society Of Golf Appraisers

Larry Hirsh, CRE, MAI, SGA 8:25

And we became friends, and I said to him one day, not long after I met him, I said, you know, we need to start an organization of guys like us so that we can identify to the golf course industry, the lending industry, uh lawyers, accountants that serve the industry, who the knowledgeable and experienced people are in the golf course business. So we started SGA and we uh established requirements and you know uh all that to to become a member.

Marc Bernstein 8:58

And uh And that's the Society of Golf Appraisers, right?

Larry Hirsh, CRE, MAI, SGA 9:01

Right, right.

Marc Bernstein 9:02

So that's you started that actually from the founder of Two Things.

Larry Hirsh, CRE, MAI, SGA 9:08

Yeah. And then uh, you know, and and and here we are, and you know, I've I've expanded my business into uh consulting and doing some brokerage of golf courses and you know uh a lot of it by accident, but you know, hopefully hopefully I've treated people right so you know they they've asked me, hey, can you help us do this or help us do that?

Marc Bernstein 9:32

I know when you and I have talked before about this, um you're not the least expensive guy out there, right? And I know sometimes that's been a challenge, right? Sure.

Larry Hirsh, CRE, MAI, SGA 9:42

Well that's part of the appraisal profession, right? Unfortunately.

Marc Bernstein 9:46

Right. So what so what makes you different and why do people come to you? Because it seems to me you're probably doing more deals than almost anybody when it comes to this.

Larry Hirsh, CRE, MAI, SGA 9:54

I don't know if we're doing more than anybody else, but what what what I'm trying to do is be better and and get into the weeds a little bit more and pay at more attention to details that are relevant details in the in the process and and uh and you know kind of speak the language of the people that are buying and selling and operating uh golf course and club properties. And and and I think we've done a pretty good job of that. Um, you know, especially when I when I see the work of other people and and see that we're addressing things that they're not. And uh and you know, I my my dad told me as a kid, he says, I don't care if you become a ditch digger, just dig the best ditches you can. And so that's kind of what I've applied to to doing what I do. And I've never really been focused on being the biggest or or making the most money. I've always really kind of figured that if I do it better than anybody else, I should be able to eat regularly.

Marc Bernstein 11:01

I wonder if my dad knew your dad. He said the exact same thing, used the same example too. So I get it. By the way, it's break time. We're

Midshow Break

Marc Bernstein 11:09

already half at our halfway point. Let's take a quick commercial break and we'll be right back on Founders Forum.

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Marc Bernstein 12:32

We're

Getting Asked To Speak

Marc Bernstein 12:33

back on Founders Forum with Mark Wagner's co-host and our guest today, Larry Hirsh. This is this is a really cool show. This is really something interesting that so many golf fanatics out there. And I know Mark has a question for you.

Mark Wagner 12:45

Larry, you mentioned earlier that you were with the group and then that they asked you to speak. I want to know how did that come about and how did you how did you work in that or feel about that at the time?

Larry Hirsh, CRE, MAI, SGA 12:57

Well, uh when I started going to these conferences, you know, the this was, you know, kind of before or in the beginning of of the golf boom of the mid-90s when the National Golf Foundation came out and said you've got to build a course every day to meet the demand, which became a disaster. But but um basically um they had you know had a an appraiser speaking and it and on a couple of occasions he wasn't able to answer some questions. So I raised my hand at the back of the room and answered the questions, and somebody must have said, Oh, this guy knows what he's talking about, and they started asking me to speak.

Mark Wagner 13:38

Makes sense. So very very like our introductions, I think that's we talked about luck and opportunity and creation. You were in the right place, but you took it the time to go out and make that happen. And I think that's what we find with founders is that you're gonna go out and create it.

Larry Hirsh, CRE, MAI, SGA 13:53

Aaron Powell Oh, without question. Yeah. There's there's you know, I there was no educational program to learn how to appraise golf courses. I I totally had to create my own learning process to be able to do what I do. And that came from going to these conferences and listen to listening to people who were golf course managers, owners, operators, superintendents, golf pros, membership directors, whatever.

Mark Wagner 14:19

Trevor Burrus You did write the book, though.

Larry Hirsh, CRE, MAI, SGA 14:21

That's probably why. Trevor Burrus, Jr.

Marc Bernstein 14:22

Well I was going to say you literally are known as the guy who writes the book, right? And I think that gets you a lot of your gigs, I would imagine.

Larry Hirsh, CRE, MAI, SGA 14:28

Trevor Burrus, Jr. Oh, absolutely. I mean, most most of our work or a lot of our work is either problem solving or litigation support. Whereas a lot of appraisers really rely on uh lending business, which is more of stuffing a file to fill a requirement. And and you know, our our business is a little bit different.

Golf Culture And The Status Trap

Marc Bernstein 14:50

So you mentioned, I mean, a lot of times we talk about the culture of companies, and you might want to talk about that because you have some staff, you have, you know, there's a few of you in the company. Um talk about that. But I'm also interested you mentioned the culture of golf. And so I experience it as a guy who plays a fair amount of golf on a lot of courses, but uh from a consumer's point of view. I'm curious to your take on the culture of golf from an industry, an insider point of view.

Larry Hirsh, CRE, MAI, SGA 15:16

Well, I have as you might expect, I have some very strong feelings about that. But it they they kind of were born in 1986. Um, you know, I think you'll agree with me from your own experiences that the golf atmosphere environment can sometimes be a little stuffy, especially at private clubs. Oh, yeah. And and um I was lucky enough to play in the Pennsylvania Open at Oakmont and even luckier to have made the cut.

Marc Bernstein 15:49

Wow.

Larry Hirsh, CRE, MAI, SGA 15:51

After birdieing the last hole, which is one of my great golf accomplishments, birdieing the last hole at Oakmont to make the cut. But but um I was having lunch with two guys and after the round, both of whom were on the Pennsylvania Golf Association Committee in the and uh two weeks prior to that, I had played in the Pennsylvania Amateur at Marion, and somebody wore a pair of shorts that somebody decided were too short, somebody disconnected with the tournament, made us think about it, and they had people going into the pro shop buying pants and walking around the golf course with unhemmed pants because nobody was allowed to wear shorts. And and this was the second day, and I had the same pair of shorts on that I had worn the first day with no objections. And and so um I'm I'm sitting there talking to these guys and I said, you know, what what's the big deal? Oh, there was a fiasco at Marion, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And they wouldn't let us wear shorts at all at at Oakmont. Wow. And and I looked at this one guy and I said, it's only a game. And and he said, no, it's not. And there was there's a hospital nearby, and I pointed to the hospital, I said, Can you tell that to the guy dying of cancer in that hospital? Yep. And between that and many other experiences I had after that at clubs where I either saw or just experienced uh a level of seriousness and intensity to what should be a recreational activity, um, you know, I just kind of they piled up and I decided to write this book. And one of the most interesting interviews I I had, and I write a blog where I interview people in the golf industry, was with our general manager over at Dornock in Scotland. And I said to him one day, we played golf. We had played golf not long before that. And I said, and he came up and had a couple beers with us afterwards. And I said, Neil, how is it that you're the general manager of one of the top ten ranked courses in the world and you get to come up and drink beer with us after we're done? He said, You know the answer to that as well as I do. And I said, What's that? He says, in your country, golf is a status symbol, and in our country it's a every man's game. And that was really the motivation for writing the book. And you know, um, you know, it doesn't always, but golf has uh a great ability to um connect different cultures. I mean, my best friend growing up and to this day is a black guy, black black kid, Jewish kid, central Pennsylvania. Okay, picture this. Okay. And he and I became friends because he was in my sister's grade, and my sister came home one day and I, you know, I had started playing golf and I was really into it. You have to meet Claude Nichols. Who's Claude Nichols? He plays golf. You know, she never said he was black. That wasn't how we grew up. And he and I became and still are best friends. Wow. And and and you know, those are the kinds of things that can happen with golf if you let them. And that's one of the reasons I wrote the book.

Marc Bernstein 19:12

I love so I didn't really understand the title. I'll say it again, The Culture of Golf isn't it just a game. Now I understand it. That that's amazing. And by the way, I'm I am so glad. It's like you almost broke this hex for me because I've always been from a young age was intimidated. Well, first of all, growing up, even Philadelphia, you know, we weren't allowed on I wasn't allowed on a lot of the golf courses, you know, as a kid. Couldn't join them, you couldn't, you know. You know, you and and you were only weren't we weren't really welcome at a lot of them.

Larry Hirsh, CRE, MAI, SGA 19:41

And it's, you know, and it's changed a lot, but there's still, you know, certain clubs still have their My grandmother didn't want me to play on the high school team because our high school team played at a course, uh club that didn't allow Jews at the time.

Marc Bernstein 19:55

Yeah, I g I I get that. I understand that. Yeah, it's quite uh quite a thing and it's changed, you know, it has changed a lot. So how will they ask you, how how much do you still think it has a lot of change to go?

Larry Hirsh, CRE, MAI, SGA 20:06

Oh yeah. I I don't I mean the the anti-Semitic or anti-black or whatever is issues.

Marc Bernstein 20:15

I knew clubs here that didn't allow Italians in because they were too loud.

Larry Hirsh, CRE, MAI, SGA 20:19

Yeah, and and the you know the that that sort of stuff is somewhat suppressed. It's still there, but it's under the rug. Um but I think I I like to call there's three groups in golf that have been grossly underrepresented, which I call the three M's, which is millennials, minorities, and moms. Millennials have been underrepresented because golf has this image of being stuffy. Minorities have been underrepresented because they haven't always been welcome. And and moms or women have have been underrepresented because you know they haven't been encouraged to play as much.

Mark Wagner 20:58

Being from the Phoenix, from Phoenix, the Phoenix Open is like one of the rowdiest ones out there.

Marc Bernstein 21:03

Right. And there's a lot of people that are upset with that. Right. In the golf, in the golf culture, right. They don't like that, right. Pretty interesting. Um you know this whole thing of Cobb's Creek in Philadelphia. So you probably know a lot about that project, what's going on there?

Larry Hirsh, CRE, MAI, SGA 21:19

Uh I know a little bit about it. I haven't really been involved in it, but I I know a good bit about it and what it is.

Marc Bernstein 21:24

And I mean it's but that goes a long way towards breaking what you're talking about. It's it's golf for everybody, which I love that concept. Yeah. That's really

Cost, Time, And Growing The Game

Marc Bernstein 21:33

cool. What um if I were to ask you um, you know, your vision over the next three years for your business and your life, uh, what would you say?

Larry Hirsh, CRE, MAI, SGA 21:41

Well, right now my biggest concern for golf is how much it costs. I'm worried where the next generation of golfers is going to come from. It's the greatest game in the world. It's it's social, it's physical, it's skill, it's mental. It's mental, it's It's a great competitive thing. You can do it your whole life. I still play with my sons all the time, which is what I live for. Um I used to say that you know, the state amateur was my major. Now my major is if any father and son tournament I can get my boys to play in with me. Good call.

Marc Bernstein 22:18

By the way, I just have to mention my son was a natural golfer. I have to t he used to watch Tiger Woods when he was two, and he could he looked just like him when he sw when he swung a golf club. Sure. So I kept saying, Jake, you got you gotta play golf. And he's like, that's an old man's sport. Yeah. And I asked him, I said, Well, he was right. He was right. He was very perceptive, this kid. And I said I said, What's an old man? He said, 24. So when he was 24, I said, Okay, you're an old man now. Let's go. He goes, nah. He says, My my brain is still developing.

Larry Hirsh, CRE, MAI, SGA 22:47

You know, I never could get my daughter involved, but I took my boys.

Marc Bernstein 22:52

But I have to tell you, I have a future son-in-law who loves to play, and now my son's getting interested. And I my son looks like he might be moving back from Colorado.

Larry Hirsh, CRE, MAI, SGA 23:00

Cool.

Marc Bernstein 23:00

So I'm getting so I'm getting that dream that's finally coming to me.

Larry Hirsh, CRE, MAI, SGA 23:03

I I you know, I've played with I took my boys out when they were really young, and and I, you know, I got a lot of heat. You know, you're pushing your kids into golf, but it was the best thing I ever did. And and but but I'm really worried about where the next generation of golfers is going to come from given how much it costs to play and how hard a game it is. Because there's no instant gratification in golf. You know, that's what the next generation looks for a lot. You know, you look up anything on your phone and and so forth and so on. And and I think that um going out and spending three thousand dollars for a set of clubs, golf shoes, hats, clothes, you gotta wear the right clothes. And then even if you go to the Muni course, you know, Jeffersonville's gonna cost you close to a hundred dollars, you know, at a given time. You know, and people say, well, geez, do I want to risk spending that much money if I don't even know if I'm gonna like it and and how hard it is. And I mean, I I've played all my life and and at times played at a reasonably high level, and right now it's really hard for me because of you know physical challenges and and it's frustrating.

Marc Bernstein 24:11

You know, it's uh you and me booth.

Larry Hirsh, CRE, MAI, SGA 24:13

Yeah.

Mark Wagner 24:13

I wonder if they pushed more of the social impact that it has. Because for me, I I shared with you earlier, I don't even keep score because I'm that bad. But the four hours to be out there with my wife or with my friends is priceless.

Larry Hirsh, CRE, MAI, SGA 24:29

Well, I'll give you the con the contrary to that argument, which I agree with you. But a lot of people in today's culture say that's takes too much time. And and that's, you know, I mean That's an issue, too. Yeah. And and that's, you know, people's time is is very precious today.

Mark Wagner 24:48

And um, what can be more precious than four hours with your son?

Marc Bernstein 24:54

And four hours in a beautiful setting with nature to a certain extent. I mean, it there's so many nice things about it. I have a hard time justifying it.

Larry Hirsh, CRE, MAI, SGA 25:02

And if you if you walk, and I'm a I'm an avid walker, if you walk, you're gonna get anywhere from twelve to fifteen thousand steps or more. You know, people count their steps these days.

Marc Bernstein 25:12

Aaron Powell By the way, I get even when I'm in a cart, six or seven thousand steps.

Larry Hirsh, CRE, MAI, SGA 25:16

No, really well.

Marc Bernstein 25:17

Oh, you absolutely purposely. Like I leave the cart behind and I walk.

Mark Wagner 25:20

You know, it's I do too, because the cart won't go where my body was. That's the other part of the equation.

Marc Bernstein 25:26

That's the problem. By the

Unreasonable Hospitality And Legacy

Marc Bernstein 25:28

way, I want to ask you, because you have a really interesting one, what's your favorite book?

Larry Hirsh, CRE, MAI, SGA 25:31

Aaron Ross Powell Unreasonable Hospitality. It's it's a book by a guy named Will Gadera who once owned and operated the restaurant 11 Madison Park in New York, which at one time when he owned it was ranked the number one restaurant in the world. And he just relates a lot of great stories about how to treat people in business or otherwise, how to take care of people. And um, you know, I one of the things that really hit me in the book was he told a story about how a real estate agent, a residential real estate agent, can um provide unreasonable hospitality, and it brought me back to when I was a kid because my parents were both residential real estate brokers, and all I ever remembered as a kid and growing up was how many of their clients became their good friends. And I really like that and have tried to do that as much as possible in my business.

Marc Bernstein 26:27

I'm fortunate in my business that that gets to happen a lot too, which is really cool. Yeah. So um do you have any one real quick thing your on your legacy? What what would you say about your what would you like your legacy to be?

Larry Hirsh, CRE, MAI, SGA 26:40

You picked this question, but I just I would like people to remember me as somebody who treated them right and who was honest.

Marc Bernstein 26:53

Great last words, and but and it right on the heels of reading that book, which is great too. Well, I think that's it for today. Thanks

Final Thanks And Sign Off

Marc Bernstein 27:01

for being here, Larry. Thanks for having being here, Mark, and co-hosting. And thank you, uh Sam, for being on the board. And thank you all for listening to Founders Forum, and we'll see you again next week.

Announcer 27:13

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