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The following programming is sponsored by Marc J. Bernstein. The views expressed do not necessarily reflect the views of this station, its management, or Beasley Media Group. Entrepreneur, founder, author and financial advisor, Marc Bernstein helps high-performing business owners turn their visions into reality. At March Forward, Marc and his partners and associates think out of the box to partner with their clients in regards to their visions for their lives, their businesses and their legacies. And through his innovative work with the Forward Focus Forums, Marc connects entrepreneurs to resources that help to fuel their success. Founders’ Forum is a radio show and podcast where entrepreneurs share their journeys, revealing the stories behind their successes, and the lessons they’ve learned. Join Marc and his guests for a mix of inspiration, valuable insights, and a bit of fun! Now, let’s dive in...

Expansion Toward An Exit

Marc Bernstein 0:53

Good morning, America. How are you? Good to be here this morning on this sunny day in Philadelphia. So I'm here with my guest Joe, who I'll formally introduce in a minute, as I always do. But Joe, um topic of the day, I'm going to call this expansion towards exit. And it's a it's a topic that I'm talking about almost every day now with business owners, because I deal with a lot of business owners in my business that are headed towards exits. And I know you're going through something with that, and it has to do with acquisitions. So there's it's always and I know that there's a decisions involved in that. Very difficult ones. Yeah. So tell just the experience around it.

Joseph Trave 1:32

We'll get more into your business, of course, later. Uh 125 people. By the way, I wonder on your website, you have a large leadership team. We have a large leadership team, yeah. Which I so I could tell that you're you're you have to. I'm thinking about all you know, I I surround myself with a lot of uh people that are smarter than I am, and they've they've told me I need to uh surround myself with uh great leaders, right? And then trade. Well you are smart because you're doing that. So uh I made it through high school, you know. We'll see. Um so what what I've what I've come to find is that um again, talking with other entrepreneurs that have scaled and exited, um, you know, there's a certain sequence and there's a way that these businesses are evaluated and you know, obviously on multiples of IBITA and um and then there's growth constraint

Manufacturing Limits And Acquisition Strategy

Joseph Trave 2:42

in mu in manufacturing. So manufacturing has constraints based on manpower and space and uh and time, right? How many hours in the day? Uh so like we we've currently gone to a second shift and you know, uh you you're not gonna get what you get out of a first shift on a second shift. It's just you know, it's it's definitely uh reduced output. Yeah. But um, you know, so currently I am I am in the process of talking to several companies, uh isolated down to one or two that I believe would be good syn synergistic uh um uh brands for us uh to continue can continue to grow the business and then eventually you know exit at some point. Um so I I'm I'm not there yet, but uh I know my wife who's been along with uh along with me all the way along this ride for twenty-seven years, uh she'd like to see uh you know the end in sight at some point. Uh so we have that conversation on a daily basis.

Marc Bernstein 3:39

So one of the I mentioned to you as we were talking about this topic before we got online a little video I did yesterday about what does life after business look like. Sure. One of the most important pieces of advice I can give you is because you've been uh as we're gonna see, you're a hard-driving business owner that's put all you know, pretty much poured his whole life into this. Absolutely. So what happens after that to make your life the way it should be? And you don't have to answer that, just something like that. Great question. Right, right. So my guest today is Joe Trave, and I do know how to say his last name correctly because I remember his family's restaurant, which is part of the story, and he is founder and CEO of Village Handcrafted Cabinetry in Lansdale, Pennsylvania. And Joe started, as you'll hear, as a small four hundred square foot wood shop in his parents' backyard, and he's grown it um over how many years? 27 years old. Oh, 27 years a year, yeah. Into a world-class, highly custom cabinet manufacturer employing over 125 skilled craftspeople, which is amazing. Congratulations for where you are today. Thank you. So I know you're gonna be hard on yourself, but but I want to make sure. I don't dwell on all of those accolades or stuff. Helen and I. Helen's in the studio with us too, by the way, Helen Denise, and she's sitting in. Maybe she'll contribute a word or two. But we were talking about how important it is to look back on your successes, yeah, look at where you are today, and then look forward, you know, not just look forward with at while we're beating ourselves up with entrepreneurs tend to do. You know, right?

Joseph Trave 5:11

Yeah, that is that is most entrepreneurs really are tough on themselves. Right. And that's how you get here.

Backyard Woodshop To 125 Employees

Marc Bernstein 5:16

Right. So um so anyway, let's talk about from the beginning. So you grew up in the area, Philadelphia area, yeah. And what did that look like?

Joseph Trave 5:24

Aaron Ross Powell, Jr. So I had the uh idyllic childhood of the 80s, right? Uh riding my bike everywhere, and uh my mom would tell me be home by dark, you know, that kind of thing. I had great parents, uh both entrepreneurs. Um and uh so yeah, my father lost his job at fifty uh and started a restaurant business. Um always wanted to get in the restaurant business as as an old Italian guy, and so he opened a uh was he a cook? No, no, I mean he enjoyed it, but uh you know he just uh yeah. It was uh so he bought a small diner in in North Wales back in eighty-seven and uh I was I was a kid at the time, so I started busing tables at at twelve years old and washing dishes at 13.

Marc Bernstein 6:06

By the way, what was your mom? What kind of entrepreneur was she?

Joseph Trave 6:08

She owned a very, very successful medic medical auditing business for insurance companies and doctors. Um so she had a she had a great career and um ran a very successful business with a partner for many years. Um and uh so they were both and and they had several businesses at that time. Uh they owned a little a town or a little Catholic gift store. We ran a little pool stand at the local pool. So my parents were always in business. And uh so I I saw that growing up and my father, I think after he lost so he worked at a very large manufacturer in Plymouth Meeting from the time he left the service until until around 47 or 50.

Marc Bernstein 6:46

What company was that?

Joseph Trave 6:47

It was called It was called Kaiser Aluminum. So yeah, it was where the Metroplex is. Right. Yeah. And he almost bought the company and uh it it didn't work out. Um but uh chemical road, right? Yeah. So so uh he he he kind of ingrained in me early, hey, don't don't put your life in some other, you know, uh some some company's hands. Go go make your own way. Yeah. And so I got that bug pretty early and uh started in the restaurant business and and ran that course for about five years uh in high school, thinking, okay, I I want to open my own restaurant. And I did at one point with my father and my and uh some of my family.

Marc Bernstein 7:23

Is that right in a different restaurant?

Joseph Trave 7:24

Yeah, we had an Italian restaurant in Lansdale. I opened that and um, you know, did that through through college, but simultaneously I I went to trade school during high school and uh always loved carpentry and I was obsessed with uh with carpentry uh and I watched New Yankee Workshop and this old house like religiously, so I uh you know, I'd VHS tape and rewind it and just watch it religiously. So I was a little obsessive about woodworking. My father would like to woodwork, and so we built this little shop in the backyard when I was 18 or 19, and uh he was good enough to do it, and he we, you know, it was like a father-son thing. Hey, we're gonna, you know, have a little wood shop. And uh quickly I realized I I couldn't um stay in the restaurant business my whole life. The nights and the weekends and uh just staffing issues, really, really challenging business. Still um I I understand that business well today. Uh my brother-in-law still owns one. And um so I I decided around uh I'd say 22, 23 years old that I was going to leave the business and and give woodworking a shot. And um so by the way, you told me your dad really encouraged that. He did, you know. My so I was just married at the time and my wife had a great job in the software uh world prior to uh Y2K. She was programming ones and zeros to make sure the world didn't collapse in in year 2000. And so she had a great job. Remember that. Had benefits, right? So I needed benefits. And uh she supported me as well, you know. She was just very supportive of me and said, Hey, let's let's give this a shot. She built me my first website when like, I mean, websites were uh yeah, this was ninety-eight. And um so we we grew this you know, little business in my father's backyard and and he uh he he actu actually got cancer at the time, and so I got to spend that last year with him almost every day. He sat there and he was he got he went downhill very fast through chemo. And uh but I got to spend that year with him and and grow this little business. I um uh I've often said I I would print up loose leaf and and put my number at the bottom and slice the numbers and put it at Wawa, and that's how I got work, right? So made business cards and little trifolds and you know, put signs out out front in people's homes and basically I'd do anything, right? You want crown molding, you want a mantle, uh I would do it. And woodwork, basically. Any woodwork, and I'd figure it out. And people would say, I I I I've told this story before. Um very, very good clients of mine locally, uh a great uh large business, uh large family business. Hey Joe, can you make baby gates? And I said, I make them all the time. And and I get home and I say to my wife, I'm like, How the hell do you make a baby gate? So quickly you figure it out, right? So um you you know, you you're scrappy, you're entrepreneurial, and you you gotta somehow keep a roof over your head, right? So I had a wife, my daughter, my uh daughter was shortly born after that, so all of a sudden I have a family of three of us that um you know I'm I'm concerned about. And uh I knew I wanted to grow the business. So my father had passed, I spent a year there, I was the youngest of four, so my mom was still there in the home, fam our family home. So it was a good time for me to transition there. Um, you know, so she was going through, you know, just losing my dad. And so I spent every day with her, you know, I'd have lunch with her, I'd go back into the shop, you know, she'd call me, hey Joe, it's lunchtime, you know. Like, how great is that? You know, at the time, where were you in the birth order here? I was the youngest of four, yeah. So three older sisters, so always around women. Um and I sell to mostly women, so I'm I'm um I I can, you know, I my wife gives me a hard time. Oh, Joe and his women, you know, exactly. Yeah, yeah. So you get used to that. Um my older sisters always had their friends around, and I would try to I'd try to charm them, and I was 10 years old and they were 20, you know. Probably didn't they thought I was very cute and they're like, get out of here. So um so anyway, so uh the business took, you know, gradually took off. And um so eventually I needed the I needed more space. I was spraying outside, the flies were getting into my my freshly uh finished furniture and whatnot. So I I found a a gentleman uh in Quakertown and uh he was looking to to retire. So I bought the assets of his business, very small, was doing maybe two hundred thousand at the time, but I was doing you know a hundred thousand at the time. So quickly I'm I'm growing.

Marc Bernstein 11:42

And you went to his location, yeah.

Joseph Trave 11:44

So I moved to Quakertown uh about four thousand square feet, and it it was a great foray into the cr the kitchen business. So he taught me the kitchen business and he became a mentor of mine. Um he was my father's age, so it was good timing, you know.

Marc Bernstein 11:56

Kitchen meaning cabinets primarily. Kitchen cabinets, yeah.

Joseph Trave 11:59

Yeah, and and so I didn't know what I didn't know, right? I was building wall units at the time with big screen TVs back in the day. You know, everybody had a big screen TV, so we'd build it into some big wall unit. Right, sure. And then I really uh but the kitchen business is where, you know, in the cabinet industry, the kitchen is the heart at home, right? So it's uh very that's the heart of the business, yeah. Exactly. So uh he taught me the business, he stayed on, I paid him, you know, uh to stay on, and he stayed on with me for five to seven years and really it was a great relationship.

Marc Bernstein 12:29

And then my my family joined my wife and by the way, that sounds like that's your first experience of kind of hiring a mentor in a way, right? Exactly.

Joseph Trave 12:37

Yeah, and it's funny, it uh uh this con concept will come full circle to where I'm at now. Um but um so yeah, we we grew the business. My wife joined. Uh she she lost her job during the dot-com bust right of 2001. Okay, right. And um so she was part-time, we had two kids at the time, and so she took the package and she came to work in the business and uh started marketing, right? Started cold calling builders and the business? She she's a director of marketing in the company, yeah. And uh my sister joined, uh, and my brother-in-law who left the restaurant business with uh a couple years after I did, and I was looking to grow and they were looking for a change. So they joined and and we spent uh 18, 20 years together, right, as as uh owners, um, four of us. And uh, you know, for the most part, uh it was a it was a very uh good relationship. So they were all owners in the business. Yeah, we were 25% owners and uh you know, established some challenges here and there, you know, between you know, as family, business can be right. So um we moved to Lansdale in 2006, bought 25,000 square feet of of space.

Marc Bernstein 13:46

So was there eventually a buyout of the other ownership?

Joseph Trave 13:49

Yeah, about uh less than a year ago. Yeah. So my my sister and brother-in-law retired just recently. It all worked out well. Worked out really well. They love retirement. And uh I like being the sole owner. You know, my wife and I are uh uh 50-50, but we're we we own the business now. Uh-huh. Um and uh so so yeah, we scaled the business. The real tough time was was 2010, you know, 20 2009, 2010 during the downturn. That that was uh that's kind of a you know, that that four years for me is like uh has I have a lot of PTSD from that time.

Marc Bernstein 14:22

Your timing is uh impeccable because we have to take a break, but I want to come back. I was going to ask you about challenges, so that that's a great place to begin. So we'll see, we'll be right back on Founders Forum.

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COVID Boom And Recession PTSD

Marc Bernstein 15:34

We're back on Founders Forum with my guest Joe Trave, and we have Helen Denise here in the studio with us. And Joe, um so we're talking about COVID. You know, obviously that uh that affected your business. I'm guessing it it probably was very tough at first, but it also might have presented some opportunities. But what did that look like?

Joseph Trave 15:54

Tough, obviously, for four to six weeks, right? We were closed down. Right. Um but it it was really nothing compared to the Great Recession, in my mind, right? So COVID exploded our business in 2021. Because people were staying home and they were given a lot of free money for you know the government just doled out. So um so they they were spending money left and right, right? So it was it was almost like a feeding frenzy of of sorts.

Marc Bernstein 16:20

Yeah.

Joseph Trave 16:21

But you know, looking back to 2010, 2009, 10, 11, 12, that that really is the PTSD that I struggle with because it it was the the the housing industry was decimated. Just decimated. And all my friends that were in other businesses, big pharma or whatever, they're like, the economy's great. And I'm like, y are what? We're living in the same world. I wasn't even living in the same world. I I I thought they were repo in my cars, right? I mean, the bank was calling my notes. I mean, it it it it it was bad. And so we really struggled. Um I I didn't know how I was gonna pay the bills, right, on a daily basis. And so you it it it creates it creates a like kind of a wound that you you're always fearful of now, right? So I still have PTSD. Like COVID for me was just like a blip, you know, it's like, yeah, a couple months, right?

Marc Bernstein 17:12

You know By the way, anyone who's been in business during those two periods, yeah. Um, and I even go back to before eighty seven when there was a big correction in the market and all that very early in my career. But but anybody who's been through those has some lessons and has some natural shell shock that accompanies that that you always have to be careful.

Joseph Trave 17:30

So like my VP of finance, she's always like, ah, our cash position's fine. I'm like, no, no, no. Like we need we need more cash just in case, you know. Right. You know, our line of credit, or don't touch our line, you know, that kind

Building Leaders And Company Culture

Joseph Trave 17:40

of thing.

Marc Bernstein 17:40

So I wanted to go back to something else. I want to ask you about your company culture. Sure. Um because I know you built a good one. And and I mentioned that it started, it was just an observation of my part that you we you you learned a lot from the fellow that you that you acquired a business from.

Joseph Trave 17:55

Yeah.

Marc Bernstein 17:56

And I know offline we've talked about the fact that you've hired other leaders that support you and help you. Um so let's talk about that, your philosophy about that, and what your company culture looks like today.

Joseph Trave 18:06

So um you learn from everybody you surround yourself with. And about ten years ago, um uh a former client from many years ago um who who scaled his business in in my town and and exited um very successfully. Um we I did another project for him and and we s he started becoming a mentor of mine. And he said, Hey, I just want to see you succeed, right? So um he said, I think you need to build a really strong leadership team, you need to build strong people around you and um and this is how you're gonna get there. So, you know, we put in place um uh an executive leadership team of six, and then we have a uh a broader leadership team of about twelve um that help run the business. So um the goal is that I don't have to be there twenty-four hours a day. Um you know, and uh and and we're getting there, right? I'm we we're putting in leadership training, uh culture is everything. I have an amazing director of uh HR and she is she is really um taking the business to another level of how to engage people. Um I I think I was telling you off off off uh mic about a gallop survey we're we're doing right now to try to get a b a baseline of where our team is and how how engaged they are, so then we can try to ascertain how do we how do we grow engagement, right? So we're all pushing forward in the same direction. Um it it's really hard when you feel like you're driving a bus and everybody's on the bus just as a passenger. We need everybody in a boat rowing in the same direction, right?

Marc Bernstein 19:36

Trevor Burrus, Jr. Now, by the way, so that's your leadership team, but then you have 125 or so employees, 130, correct. So how uh what's the culture like with the whole company?

Joseph Trave 19:45

I would say um it's a very busy place, right? So people you could see stress on a lot of people's faces, right? Because we we provide an extremely high-end product that has to be perfect, not kind of perfect, it has to be a big thing.

Marc Bernstein 19:58

By the way, I should mention you've evolved to its high-end cabinetry of all kinds of things.

Joseph Trave 20:02

So we sell high-end custom cabinetry for the whole home, um, really up and down the east coast. Yeah. So um, and you know, we'll go out west as well. So I mean we do large projects all over the country. Um so yeah, so the level of work is very hard, it's hard work, but the the best cabinet makers and finishers and designers want to work for companies like ours where they get to be challenged. Right. Right. We're not building just we're not stamping out boxes all the day that hang on a wall, right? These are very I mean, we'll build a bunk bed, a set of bunk beds that are $100,000, right? So these are extremely complex projects for affluent clients that demand extremely high level of work. Right. So culture is a challenge, right?

Marc Bernstein 20:45

By the way, I looked at your jobs that you're posting and what you're requiring of those people. You you're you're looking for high-end people that like challenges.

Joseph Trave 20:54

So we we tend we say we have the best team in the country, right? We are building the best cabinetry in the country, I need the best team. And I continue to tell the team like you're like you guys are the best. Right. Right? Like if you're not gonna not everybody makes it here. So it it it whittles down people fairly fast if you're not up to up to snuff. Trevor Burrus, Jr.

Marc Bernstein 21:16

So they and they recognize that amongst them. There's got to be a feeling of accomplishment.

Joseph Trave 21:20

I would like to think so. And you know, when I walk the floor every day and I say good morning, hey Bob, hey Tom, hey hey Pat, um, you know, you you you I get a lot of we try to be a high five culture, you know, a lot of fist bumps. Hey, look at that. What do you oh that's so cool. By the way, for a company that size, it sounds like you know all your employees. I I try to, yeah. That's great. Yeah. And um because I'm one of them, I mean I I I tell them, hey, if toilet needs cleaning, I'm cleaning the toilet, right? That we're all you walk if you see it, you own it. Right. And you've walked the walk, you've done that work. Right. And I can still do it if need be, you know. And I'll say, hey, if you if if you don't show up, I might be on the bench building that cabinet, right? Right. You know.

Time Freedom And Letting Go

Joseph Trave 21:56

Interesting.

Marc Bernstein 21:56

Yeah. So um so let me ask you this. Um I just want to check something really quick. Yeah. So if if we if this were three years from today, Joe. Yeah. Um because we've talked about a lot of things are going and you look back on the last three years, what would have to happen in your business in your life for you to feel like that was a successful period.

Joseph Trave 22:14

You know, one of the things that I I continue to um ch be challenged with is time. Right. So I I've traded time for money, right? So I I you know, maybe I've I've I've done well and you know, so I have I've got some money, but I I don't have a lot of time. And my wife's really and I are talking a a lot about and my children about, hey, you know, when we have when I have grandkids, I want to be around. I m you know, I was not around during when my kids were in sports, I was always working.

Marc Bernstein 22:42

And how old are your kids now?

Joseph Trave 22:43

Twenty-five and twenty four uh twenty-three. Yeah.

Marc Bernstein 22:46

So you can start thinking.

Joseph Trave 22:47

Yeah, I really am. And my wife's like, hey, you know, how do we start to evolve? And I think part of that is this this acquisition to continue to grow the business uh to eventually hopefully exit the business, right? And whether that's an ESOP, whether that's private equity, whether that's uh strategic buyer, um that's you know, I um that's my daily, you know, thought process.

Marc Bernstein 23:08

Let me ask you this. So is but is that is that the solution, the exit, or do you f do you want to start making more of that time evolving towards that?

Joseph Trave 23:19

Trevor Burrus, Jr. Building this leadership team, there is some thoughts behind could I run the business with a leadership team and not be as involved on a daily basis. Um my personality, I struggle. I'm I'm an all-in guy, right? So if I'm in, I'm in, right? Trevor Burrus, Jr.

Marc Bernstein 23:34

Well I was gonna say before when you're talking about the leadership team and what you're doing with them, the next step is you have to let go a little bit.

Joseph Trave 23:40

I I really struggle with letting go. Right. So when I come into a meeting, somehow I take over the meeting and I I I struggle taking a backseat. Right. You know, uh so and my wife will call me out. She's like, You're doing it, you're doing it. So there's some work to be done there. I have a lot of work to do on myself now.

Marc Bernstein 23:59

Well, that's that's look, that's part of growth, that's part of evolution, right? So what what what I was gonna ask you what challenges are standing in the way. So one of the things is obviously you want to move towards being built for some kind of exit strategy.

Joseph Trave 24:12

Yeah. What else is part of that vision? My vision is eventually to have the time to enjoy life a little bit more, and that's you know, and that that I think you get accustomed to a certain lifestyle, right? Right. So now the lifestyle predicates the time and and you know, so you just continue to trade that. Um I'd love to have more of a balance. And I I hate that term because in business.

Marc Bernstein 24:38

You almost imply that if you step back, you won't make as much money.

Joseph Trave 24:42

Well, yeah. Which probably isn't reality. I know, I know. And we talked about that earlier. You know, maybe if I let go, I'd I'd you know. Um and it's not really the money so much as I want to see this business grow and I want to see it be the best um out there in the country, right? And you know, uh internally in my industry, I have people from the West Coast say, Who is this company village in in Lansdale, Pennsylvania? I mean, who are these people? And they hear this from Seattle, Washington. So it's pretty cool that we're we're getting that kind of recognition nationally.

Marc Bernstein 25:12

By the way, my mind was blown after uh you and I spoke because I drive by there. I told you I go to car wash right down the street. Sure. And I never noticed it. Yeah. Um, my son, who who you who you're gonna meet, he said, Oh, I know that place. Like like you drive because it's very impressive where it's like it's well, cool story about that building.

Joseph Trave 25:31

It they there was cannonballs produced in there for the revolution. So I mean the fact that we're building some of the best cabinetry in the country right there in Lansdale and that old cannon factory, it's pretty cool. Pretty amazing.

Marc Bernstein 25:43

So what what quickly, um what challenges do you have in terms of that vision of like getting more free time and building towards that exit?

Joseph Trave 25:51

I know one of the challenges is yourself. I think, yeah, that is one of the challenges again, making sure that I have the right team around me, right? And making sure that everybody is in the right seat on the bus. Right. Right? Because you could have the right person, wrong seat, or you know, or vice versa. Um you know, looking at the acquisition that I'm I'm targeting right now, I think the synergies are there, right? It could really help us scale our business.

Marc Bernstein 26:13

Um that bring on some people to help supplemental. Oh, absolutely.

Joseph Trave 26:17

We we would you know, there's synergies between the two companies and um different markets, right? And uh that helps us expand rapidly, right? So I mean we could do a fifty percent growth in in a year here. So um so uh you know, but that's risky. So I understand the risks

Advice To Younger Self And Wrap

Joseph Trave 26:34

as well.

Marc Bernstein 26:34

I have one last question for you. If you were speaking to your younger self today, what advice would you give you?

Joseph Trave 26:42

Stop and enjoy stop and smell the roses a little bit more. Yeah. I haven't really done that a whole lot. And uh that's that's one thing I'm challenged with. I know you're a lifelong learner. Do you read? Are you a reader? I'm more of a podcaster.

Marc Bernstein 26:55

Okay.

Joseph Trave 26:56

Yeah. Oh well, welcome.

Marc Bernstein 26:58

Yeah. ADHD, uh it could it prevents me from reading too much. Well, that's why we do a 28-minute show here because it's for entrepreneurs. You can absorb that. 28 minutes.

Joseph Trave 27:08

On like Rogan at two and a half hours. Yeah.

Marc Bernstein 27:12

See, I hardly ever listen to that. It's too much for me. Yeah, I it takes me a week to get through one. I know, same with me. Well, listen, thanks so much for being here, Joe. It's been a pleasure. Time flies, you know, as we're having fun. We thank all of you for being here on Founders Forum today. And thank you, Helen, for sitting in with us again. And we'll see you next week on Founders Forum.

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